Re: [lojban] Regularization

[Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu>]

On Monday 11 April 2011 13:32:49 Ian Johnson wrote:
> One problem with {va'o da'i} is that it is ambiguous with respect to
> counterfactuality, in that events which are hypothetical are permitted to
> happen. In English, we have "If ... then ..." vs. "Were it true that ...
> then ...". (My example is clunky because it's generic; in practice it's not
> necessarily that clunky.) In some Romance languages we have different
> subjunctive tenses for this distinction: Latin would use "si <present
> subjunctive> <indicative>" for the non-counterfactual case and "si
> <imperfect subjunctive> <indicative>" for the counterfactual case. How can
> Lojban make this distinction?

"da'i ru'e" vs. "da'i sai". Btw, "were" in "were it" is the imperfect 
subjunctive, a form that in all other English verbs is indistinguishable from 
the past.

Greek indicates the distinction another way. "Εαν ταις γλωσσαις των ανθρωπων 
λαλω και των αγγελων, αγαπην δε μη εχω, γεγονα χαλκος ηχων η κυμβαλον 
αλαλαζον." (1 Cor. 13:1) The verb is in present subjunctive (can't tell from 
λαλω that it's subjunctive, but some succeeding verbs make it clear); the 
impossibility of the counterfactual is indicated by using "εαν" ("ifever") 
instead of "ει" ("if"). The Reina-Valera puts the verbs all in past 
subjunctive; I think the one in verse 3 should be in future subjunctive (the 
Greek ψωμισω is aorist subjunctive, which looks like future). The NVI has 
present indicative, and the NIV has present, but I can't tell whether they're 
indicative or subjunctive. Here's an attempt in Lojban:

lo nu tavla sebau da'isai lo remna .e lo .angeli gi'enai prami cu se jalge lo 
nu binxo lo snaminra lastu .a lo cmoni kimvalo

(Which reminds me: I need to create the git repo. I have the conversion script 
working.)

An interesting use of ει is in Hebrews 3:11: Ως ωμοσα εν τη οργη μου, "Ει 
εισελευσονται εις εην καταπαυσιν μου". (As I swore in my wrath, "If they will 
enter my rest".) The closest English construction (a strong prohibition cast 
as a logical connection with one part missing) is "You stay out of my rest, 
or else!"

Pierre
-- 
The Black Garden on the Mountain is not on the Black Mountain.

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