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Re: [lojban] selbri lo TAG sumti



Yeah, I've found {be fa} to be a handy short-hand from time to time.  And I meant that {mi fe klama lo zarci} is nonsensical in a way that {mi TAG klama lo zarci} is not.  

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 2:22 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
 Well, actually, you can have a naked FA.  It's perfectly permissible
to say "la milos cu gerku fe"  It's the same as "la milos cu gerku fe
ku" which in turn is the same as "la milos cu gerku fe zo'e".  The
issue is simply you turn that selbri into a sumti you can only trail
the FA, and you must do so with "be".  "lo gerku be fe cu blabi" (the
dog of some species is white).  (btw, it's probably not very
meaningful to say "lo gerku be fa X..." since you are already
implicitly filling the x1 space, although I suppose "lo nolraitru be
fa la tcarlz cu clani" means the same, or nearly so,  as "lo nolraitru
no'u la tcarlz cu clani")
      --gejyspa

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 1:17 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Right.  In light of that understanding, really FA is the odd selma'o.  It's
> like a TAG in some ways, but doesn't behave like one all the time.  i.e. You
> can't have a naked FA (which results in things like "lo fa gerku" being
> absurd or non-grammatical)
>
> On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 1:03 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>>  Well, of course, it is, in some sense.  The important point to
>> remember is that the FA series needs to be hooked after the selbri
>> with a be when you convert the selbri to sumti, and a BAI needs to
>> also, IF it has an argument attached to it, e.g. "lo klama be bai mi
>> [be'o] cu tordu" ( that which is forced-by-me-to-come is short), but
>> BAI without a sumti can act like more like a tense (PU/ZI), and can
>> appear "nakedly" in front of the selbri word, which can then be
>> converted to a sumti directly.
>>
>>          --gejyspa
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 10:58 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Ok, that makes sense.  I think the heart of my confusion started when I
>> > learned BAI and thought "oh, so it's like FA".  So that lead me into
>> > thoughts like "what in the hell is {lo fa gerku}".  But I think I've got
>> > it
>> > now (for the time being) ;p
>> > ki'e gejyspa
>> >
>> > On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Michael Turniansky
>> > <mturniansky@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>  I guess, if I am reading you correctly, you can certainly do that.
>> >> But it's really not all that complicated.  Take these examples from
>> >> the CLL:
>> >> le ratcu cu citka le cirla
>> >>        vi le vu panka
>> >>    The rat eats the cheese
>> >>        [short distance] the [long distance] park
>> >>    The rat eats the cheese near the faraway park.
>> >> (10.12.4)
>> >>
>> >>  lo ca nolraitru
>> >>        be le fasygu'e cu na krecau
>> >>    The-actual present noblest-governor
>> >>        of the French country [false] is-hair-without.
>> >>    The current king of France isn't bald.
>> >> (15.2.6)
>> >>
>> >>  "lo TAG sumti" means nothing more or less like any other sumti, "X
>> >> du lo broda" -> "X broda"  "X du lo TAG broda" -> "X TAG broda"  The
>> >> tag (selbri tcita) comes along ("tags along" :-) with the selbri.  So
>> >> when you say "mi bai klama ti", you have no problem with that, right?
>> >> "I was forced to come here".  So you are a "forced-to-come" thing,
>> >> with destination here.  So when I say "lo bai klama cu tordu", it just
>> >> means the "forced-to-come thing" is short.
>> >>
>> >>       --gejyspa
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 9:05 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Earlier I found a bridi of this form and upon being confused by it, I
>> >> > did
>> >> > some googleing and found this
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > thread: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/488b2cb9a22bb9d3
>> >> > Low and behold, this topic has confused me before.  For simplicity
>> >> > sake,
>> >> > (I
>> >> > know it's not technically equivalent), could I read {broda lo TAG
>> >> > brode}
>> >> > as
>> >> > {broda lo brode (oh and lo brode is TAG to something in the way that
>> >> > caku
>> >> > makes a bridi "ca" to "something")}?
>> >> >
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