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Re: [lojban] Lions and levels and the like
maikxlx wrote:
> Let's simplify "I want to try to pry {ka'e} from {kakne} at this
point" and translate it as {mi la'e de'u djica}. We want to say
(0) Not necessarily: mi la'e de'u djica
We can try
(1) na ku ni'i ku mi la'e de'u djica
How would you translate that?
It is not the case that: something (unspecified) logically necessitates
me wanting it.
> To me it seems to mean "not logically
because of something, I want it."
More or less the same as mine, but moving the negation away seems to
imply that you want it, but the negation still applies to the who sentence.
Nora suggests putting a "da" after ni'i might make this more clear
(1') na ku ni'i da ku mi la'e de'u djica
It is not the case that: there exists an x such that x necessitates me
wanting it.
>In other words I do in fact want it,
In English, perhaps, but not in the Lojban.
I'm a little hazy on negation scope, but I THINK
(i.) ni'iku naku mi la'e di'u djica
and
(ii.) naku ni'iku mi la'e di'u djica
differ in whether the ni'i is included in the negation
and I think would be translated respectively.
(i.) Logically entailed by something, it is false that I want it.
(ii.) It is false that (it is logically entailed that I want it).
I think that the latter approximates to your (0).
I would normally do anything complex like this with explicit prenexes, so
(ii.') naku ni'iku zo'u mi la'e di'u djica
To indicate that you want it despite what is logically entailed, you
would use ni'inai ku, with no sentence negation.
(iii.) ni'inai ku mi la'e de'u djica
(Despite) some logic, nevertheless I want it.
It is also possible that "na'eni'i ku" would serve to negate ONLY the
entailment. But na'e is a scalar negation and we haven't formally
defined what exactly na'eni'i means. Best guess for this
(iv.) na'eni'iku mi la'e di'u djica
Other-than-logically entailed, I (still) want it.
Which is still a claim that you want it, which is not (0) as I
understand it.
(2) ni'i ku mi la'e de'u na ku djica
What's that to you?
> To me it's "logically (because of something), I
don't want it" which means I actually don't want it.
I believe that moving the naku changes its scope with regard to
existential variables, but otherwise, it still is a negation of the
sentence as a whole.
"necessarily" seems like a "therefore", which is the "se" form of the first
four and the unmodified ja'e. "Not necessarily" would then seem to be a
kind of negation of the therefore statement - not the nai form which has
been defined from the JCB era as "nevertheless", but presumably the na form.
If you can approximate sentence (0) in Lojban using any of BAI and SE
and {na ku}, please show me. From what I can see, you can't get modal
readings from BAI.
Whatever word you choose, it has to be used carefully. If you attach the
modal to the sumti "mi", you get
"I do not necessarily want to try to pry ka'e from kakne at this point (but
someone else might want to)."
Because I do not see how the basic meaning "I do not necessarily want
it" can be gotten,
The basic meaning in English is ambiguous. I am inclined to think that
"I want it" would be inconsistent and "I don't want it" might or might
not be inconsistent. The truth of "I want it" isn't the essential claim.
Perhaps the real problem is that the main selbri is wrong.
(ii.'') na nibli lenu mi la'e de'u djica
seems more straightforward to achieve your (0).
Nora observes that nibli/ni'i may not be the right concept for
"necessarily" as you use it in (0).
> I see even less how the inherence "but someone else
might want it" can be gotten.
Change the English emphasis and it becomes more obvious.
"**I** do not necessarily want it"
or
"I don't necessarily want it to rain this weekend, (but the farmer who
is facing crop loss from drought certainly does want it to rain)."
lojbab
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