Re: [lojban] Cowan's summary: opacity and sumti-raising

Vocab sorting: nitcu : x1 needs/is dependent on / x2 for purpose x3
sarcu: x1 (abstr) is necessary for completion of x2 under conditions x3
So presumably n2 is s1 when n3 is s2 (or some abstraction involving n2 anyhow)
bilga : x1 is obligated/ has a duty to do x2 under convention x3 (or whatever word you want there)
So, not related to the other two in any obvious way; they are purpose-oriented, this is contract oriented.
The floor cleaning cases is, of course, open to several readings: in the barracks, with inspection impending, {nitcu} seems quite appropriate, though, given that these events recur, a system is likely that {bilga}s some individual or group, in which case {ei} also fits. I don't see exactly how {sarcu} fits into this discussion, nor the one about studying. subject raising is always suspect and to be avoided whenever possible and none of these cases seems to require it, though, if you want to say "The floor needs cleaning" and need n1 to be an agent, you may have to use it.

From: Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Cowan's summary: opacity and sumti-raising

On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 11:10 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
> We are probably screwing some things up, but this is not obviously one of
> them. I need to go to the store if the store is the relevant place to get
> what I need. I am mnot necessarily obliged to go to the store, even if it
> has what I need for some project, unless I am obliged to finish the project
> -- or unless you take "obliged" in a practical sense. {bliga} has similar
> problems, aside from the issue of to whom you are obliged and by what fiat.

What Lindar probably has in mind are not things like "I need to go to
the store" which seems like a clear case of "nitcu", but things like
"someone needs to clean the floor" or "the floor needs to be cleaned".
These seem to be more ".ei" than "bilga" though. ".ei su'o da lumci lo
loldi", ".ei lo loldi cu se lumci". They are certainly not "su'o da
bilga lo nu lumci lo loldi" and much less "lo loldi cu bilga lo nu se
lumci". I would say they are actually cases of raising from "sarcu":
'lo nu lo loldi cu se lumci cu sarcu" -> lo loldi cu jai sarcu fai lo
nu se lumci": "That the floor be cleaned in necessary" -> "the floor
needs to be cleaned". The "someone" case can't be raised in Lojban
because of the quantifier. Other cases that may look more like "bilga"
(as in "he needs to pay more attention") I would say are similarly
cases of raising (from "it is necessary that he pay more attention")
rather than cases of "bilga".

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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