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Re: [lojban] What place of nesting bridi {ce'u} refers to?
On Thursday, October 4, 2012 11:47:16 PM UTC+4, selpa'i wrote:Am 04.10.2012 17:02, schrieb la gleki:>
>
>> 1."I want to eat an apple".
>>
>> The normal way uses an infinitive compound:
>>
>> ^:i \ji /daw crw \xo plyw
>>
>> But you can also use an explicit infinitive:
>>
>> ^:i \ji /daw \vo crw \xo plyw
>>
>> 2."I want you to eat an apple".
>>
>> ^:i \ji /gu pli \ju ^vo crw \xo plyw
>>
>> or
>>
>> ^:i \ji ^ju /gu pli \crw \xo plyw
>>
>
> But I have a clear feeling that in both sentences the same semantic
> prime can be used. And this prime describes "desire".
> Lojban can replace {ce'u} with anything. Natlangs can do the same.
> gua\spi can't. {to zoi gy. I don't want to criticize gua\spi anymore.
> gy. toi}
You cannot replace ce'u at all or else it's gone and it's not a
ka-abstraction anymore (or not a well-formed one).
True. Still the same brivla can be used. Unlike gua\spi.
What natlangs can and
can't do has little relevance when discussing Lojbanic topics such as
ka-abstractions.
Then gua\spi has little relevance too.
In Lojban, djica2 is a nu, not a ka. You could say that djica should be
polymorphic and allow both nu and ka, but I don't think that's what
you're saying, is it? (I don't know *what* you are saying).
My only complaint that we have a nice shortcut of saying {du'u ce'u} but we don't have one for {nu ce'u}.
Why is it a nu? Because you can djica things that don't involve
yourself. (Gua\spi's _daw_ is restricted to desiring to do or be
something, hence it's always like a Lojban ka. And that's why the second
example uses a different predicate.)
Again, what is the difference between the Lojban and the gua\spi sentence?
Hopefully no semantic difference. Looks like Lojban just gives more freedom in recombining the same words without drawing in extra predicates.
>
>>
>> btw, what is your opinion about {ka=su'u ce'u}?
>>
>> I'm not sure how to answer that question. You can say that ka is
>> du'u ce'u, I don't know what the advantage is in defining ka in
>> terms of su'u, because to me su'u could then mean nu or ni, which
>> means that ka could become nu ce'u or ni ce'u. So why not use a more
>> precise abstractor? Also, what is the point anyway? ka has at least
>> one ce'u in it, that's pretty clear to almost everyone. Why do you
>> need to use su'u here?
>
>
> Well, I used su'u because wasn't sure about {du'u}. And {* lo ka lo
> penbi cu clani } had bewildered me.
> I just wanna know whether it would be correct to add the definition of
> {ka=du'u ce'u} into jvs or not.
That seems pointless and it's not a real definition either. You can't
blindly replace "ka" with "du'u ce'u". It has been said many times that
"a ka-abstraction is a du'u-abstraction that contains at least one
ce'u". This is one view you can have,
I do. {ka} not always = {du'u ce'u}, sure. May be it can be expressed as {du'u [...] ce'u}.
I don't know if everybody would
agree with it. We don't just add definitions for the cmavo, that's the
job of the - currently idle - BPFK.
Sorry, I don't understand your motivation here. Try to be a bit more
clear, please.
Let's stop arguing and let's ce'u-ize gimste :).
How the new ce'u-ized definitions of gismu should look like in ur opinion?
mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
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