Re: [lojban] Re: Aesop translation

[tsani nicte <nictytan@gmail.com>]

On Jan 28, 2013, at 17:40, Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com> wrote:

> I see what you mean about the scalar opposite of {krinu}.  What if I had said: {lo broda cu na na selki'u} -> .. is not (not justified)
> I want to render the double negation. 
> 
> I might also have used {lo nu mi gasnu kei na rincau}  "my doing is not lacking-reason".  Maybe this would have been clearer.
> 

{rincau} doesn't really solve the problem, because it's formal definition, assuming jvajvo, is going to be {ka ko'a ko'e ce'ai ko'a claxu lo ka ce'u krinu ko'e}, which translates into English as "x1 lacks the property of x1 justifying x2." Now, you have an elided {se}, which is permissible with the proviso that the lujvo without the SE be useless. {rincau} with the definition I gave *is* useful, I'd say, and you should therefore not elide the {se}, I think.

Now, you are allowed, when using ka and du'u abstractions in the formal definition, to use {makau} instead of ce'u with the same rules for eliding SE. Likewise, I think that the version with the ce'u could also be useful, and it is therefore not advisable to define using makau.

Next, if you had decided on using makau, there are some ideas bouncing around on what makau really does, and it seems like there some connection to {da}. In particular:
{.i ko'a claxu lo ka ce'u broda makau} ~> {.i ko'a broda noda}

That leads me to agree with xorxes: nonselki'u is the lujvo for the job, if you absolutely want to use a lujvo. 

If you want to render the double negation without using a lujvo, you could use {na} twice, but I think that it'd be more interesting to play around with the quantifier:
.i lo nu mi gasnu cu se krinu naku no da

Finally, and on a different note, instead of {lo nu mi gasnu}, how about {lo du'u mi mokau zukte}, which translates to "[The fact that] I did what I did."

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

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