Re: [lojban] Re: what {me lo broda ku} means and why not allow {selbri NOI}

[Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>]

On 1 May 2013 08:18, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:

Jacob Errington:

Regardless of these transformations, I have to admit that using selbri-NOI like this is *weird* in cases where the selbri isn't a noun-type selbri (having a definition of {x1 is a <something> ...})

  Such thinking in itself is (AFAIC)  malrarbau.  There really are no such things as "noun-type" selbri.  Or, conversely, all selbri are "noun-type".  Name one that isn't. Any selbri that can take a LE in front of it (i.e. all of them) is noun-type.  Please tell me any that aren't.   I've long advocated for selbri+NOI, and I don't think it should be that difficult.  I see them as ko'a broda NOI brode -> ko'a me lo broda NOI brode me'u 

Haha. The point I raised in one of my mails is that the very *concept* of selbri+NOI stems from malrarbau:

>"This is the house that I used to live in." "This is the dog that I take care of." "This is my friend whom I've known for a long time." What do these all have in common? Nouns. 

Thus, selbri+NOI will get used to just more easily gloss european languages that allow this sort of thing. Turns out I also said that already:

>All they [the various possible extensions of relative clauses] really do is make a certain number of naive assumptions about relative clauses true.

You're right though. All selbri are equal. However, some are extremely nounish in their meaning. Some selbri will almost never appear inside {nu}, for instance, which is a typical indicator that they are "nouns". I challenge someone to find a use of {lo nu stizu} in the corpus, zo'oru'e. In general, all these selbri are defined in English using the verb "to be".

All in all, if one really just *speaks Lojban*, one realizes that selbri+NOI isn't needed. There're other (IMO better) ways to get your point across. (I've given loads of examples in my second post in this thread.) There're features of Lojban that I might like to have in English; that doesn't mean that I try to change the language to get them.

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

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