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Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla

To reiterate, the notion SAE comes from Whorf and plays a significant role in various papers which came to form his hypothesis.  The list of surface grammatical and lexical features listed below are only peripherally relevant to a languages status as SAE,  though more so than where it is spoken.

Sent from my iPad

On May 31, 2013, at 5:32, la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:



On Friday, May 31, 2013 1:49:37 PM UTC+4, lojbab wrote:
la arxokuna wrote:
>         Yes, and relative clauses are adjectives.
>
>
>     No.
>
>
> A cat which is black = black cat

Semantically, they are often similar, but not necessarily identical, as
is more evident if you try to reverse the identity.  A black cat may
also be a cat which has a black collar contrasted with one that has a
white collar, for example, or any of a number of other plausible
relations associating the aformentioned cat with some sort of blackness.

I have a cat that most would call a "black cat", but in fact is xekri
joi blabi

>         All SAE languages have adverbs. Lojban is no exception.
>
>
>     Lojban is not an SAE language.
>
>
> Lojban must optionally work as a SAE language. Otherwise it's alien and
> not usable by SAE-speakers.

Lojban is alien in several senses.

I have to presume that you are using SAE as it is commonly understood.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Average_European
It would be interesting to see how many of the listed features actually
apply to Lojban.



I did a part of it three weeks ago.

I found an article by Haspelmath (whose works i rate very high) which even got into Wikipedia. I added notes in square brackets of whether each feature is possible in Lojban but you can check it in your projects.

Haspelmath (2001) lists further features characteristic of European languages (but also found elsewhere):
  1. verb-initial order in yes/no questions; [optionally possible in Lojban]
  2. comparative inflection of adjectives (e.g. English bigger); [optionally possible in Lojban]
  3. conjunction A, B and C; [no, needs extra {ke ... ke'e} brackets for nesting, the default is "A and B and C"]
  4. syncretism of comitative and instrumental cases (e.g. English with my friends vs. with a knife); [terrible polysemy, but comitative is vague enough to be used instead of instrumental, so yes, possible]
  5. suppletivism in second vs. two; [of course not, it's stupid and has mostly historical explanations]
  6. no distinction between alienable (e.g. legal property) and inalienable (e.g. body part) possession; [possible with {pe}]
  7. no distinction between inclusive and exclusive first-person plural pronouns ("we and you" vs."we and not you"); [not possible yet, always distinguishable, probably the definition ofSAE "we" should be "I and other people, optionally including the listener". {za'u mi} is a possible solution although doubted by some]
  8. no productive usage of reduplication; [yes, not used]
  9. topic and focus expressed by intonation and word order; [possible with intonation; possible by word order, which is probably an universal]
  10. word order subject–verb–object; [yes, by default]
  11. only one gerund, preference for finite subordinate clauses; [well, one gerund is definitely possible]
  12. specific "neither-nor" construction; [not very specific, a part of a neat conjunctive system in Lojban]
  13. phrasal adverbs (e.g. English already, still, not yet); [can be seen as advebrs]
  14. tendency towards replacement of past tense by the perfect.~ [pragmatically possible, but only as a tendency in the community, not as a rule]


 
We certainly have an explicit distinction between alienable and
inalienable possession, not that it comes up much in actual usage.

SAE speakers are quite capable of learning non-SAE languages.

>     *sumti
>
>         {mlatu} is a verb.
>
>
>     *selbri
>
>
>
> The more you replace understandable terms to fenki terms the fewer
> people are willing to learn Lojban.

But the more likely it will be that they will actually learn Lojban,
rather than a quasi-SAE perversion of Lojban.

> Of course it's your choice but please don't try ban other terminologies
> for the same language.

If the terminology is misleading or even incorrect because Lojban does
not behave the same as other languages for which that terminology is
used, then we are wise to "ban" or at least avoid that terminology.

lojbab


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