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Re: [lojban] [oz] {lo prenu cu cmamau lo makcu}



Ok, let me expand.

I understand that part of xorlo is that predicates be defined on plural variables. This allows, for example, {bevri} to be defined in a way such that {lo nanmu cu bevri lo pipno} can mean that the men carried the piano either individually or as a group. This does not mean, though, that the predicate has a double meaning, it just happens that it is _cumulative_. That is, if one man carried the piano, and the other carried as well, then we can say that the two of them carried the piano as well, so that the distributive meaning is particular case of the collective one. If the predicate were distributive, the converse would also be true, and no distinction would exist.

Defining the predicates as collective is justified because distribution can be easily conveyed via external quantification and we don't have to introduce any artificial mass-entities otherwise.
Well, it turns out that cumulativity is very very common among properties. It wouldn't be hard to enumerate the non-cumulative properties. {cmamau} is a good archetype. Other examples are {cmalu}, {ci mei}, {me'i ci mei}. There is not much space for creativity beyond that.
It is to be expected that it brings some contention.

To me, nothing else having been specified, the most natural thing is to give {cmalu} and friends a collective meaning. Natural enough that the sentence in question caught my attention during a fairly fluent reading. We can still distribute via external quantification and there is {lo'e} for myopic singularization.

I agree with xorxes' myopic singularization analysis of "The men were smaller than the adults Dorothy was used to". I just don't see a justification for that in the Lojban citation.

Allowing all predicates to have either collective or distributive, or generic interpretations, without clear rules about when each is to be meant, is to me just bad ambiguity, no better than ambiguous scope, or allowing {lo broda} to possibly mean {lo du'u ma kau broda}. Once we can formally fully explain natural languages, we can have a LoCCan just like them (though there would hardly be any point in it).

I can envision some ways to systematically justify the distributive interpretation. {cmalu}, {barda} and friends could be defined to distribute over its connected components, for example. That would capture xorxes intuition that "comparing people's sizes is more common than comparing groups of people's sizes" while allowing the collective meaning in convenient contexts. I would still want something like that to be officially and explicitly declared somewhere, though.


mu'o
mi'e .asiz.



On 5 January 2014 14:42, Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 1:29 PM, Felipe Gonçalves Assis <felipeg.assis@gmail.com> wrote:
The full sentence is
  {lo prenu cu cmamau lo makcu poi dy ke'a se slabu}.
{lo prenu} refers to what turns out to be three Munchkins and the Witch of the North, and dy is Dorothy.

The plausible interpretation is of course distributive,
  {ro lo prenu cu cmamau ro lo makcu}.

I wouldn't interpret it that way. My interpretation is that for the purposes of this comparison all the referents of "lo prenu" are essentially the same size and count as one thing, all the referents of "lo makcu poi ..." are essentially the same size and count as one, and the former is smaller than the latter. (This could be called a generic reading, or "myopic singularization".) I very much doubt that the intention of such a sentence is to make a cross product comparison of ro vs ro.
  
But, if predicates are to be defined on plural variables, shouldn't the original sentence mean that the bunch of prenu is, collectively, smaller than the bunch of makcu?

That's an unlikely reading just because comparing people's sizes is more common than comparing groups of people's sizes. If instead of "cmamau" the predicate used was "fewer" ("klanyme'a"?) then the group reading would be the one that makes more sense, since a single person doesn't have any such obvious quantity to compare as the cardinality of a group.

Is the translation wrong? Or is the sentence ambiguous? If so, how to unambiguously convey the collective interpretation?

To convey a comparison of the groups physical sizes I would say "lo prenu gunma cu cmamau lo gunma be lo makcu poi ..." 

mu'o mi'e xorxes

 

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