Re: [lojban] Re: Lojban's leadership and how I don't give a shit about it

On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 9:59 PM, Dustin Lacewell <dlacewell@gmail.com> wrote:

Hmm, I definitely don't understand this response very well. It sounds like you're saying that the baseline is complete yet undocumented.

No. The baseline is the state of the language, it is not something that can be "complete" or not. The /documentation/ of the baseline is what is not complete, and will not be until the things on the BPFK Sections page have been finished. (Because that's the documentation I refer to.)

Reminding us that the language is intended to be "frozen" until the documentation is indeed complete.

It's not "intended" to be frozen. It /is/ frozen. No changes to the languages can be made, no proposals will be looked at, nothing can be changed until the baseline is completely documented, per the standing orders of the LLG, who created the BPFK for that specific purpose, as well as the eventual purpose of reviewing and (dis)approving any changes after such documentation is finished.

Furthermore, that you don't believe the BPFK will ever be "finished" completing that documentation. You then state that lojban is a non-static evolving language.

No again. I most definitely believe that the documentation can and will be finished. What I said was that I don't think the duties of the BPFK will, as the duties of the BPFK, other than completing the baseline documentation, are to review and (dis)approve any change proposals, and the only reason I know of for such proposals to stop happening is for people to stop using the language, because only /dead/ languages don't change.


So if I at least read you correctly, I'm unsure how to interpret the content.

Then it's a good thing you didn't.


Are you suggesting that BPFK will never complete the documentation of the baseline (and hence reach an unfreeze) *because* lojban is ever changing?

No, I'm saying that no official changes can be made to Lojban until the documentation of the language /as it is right now/ (A.K.A., the baseline) is completed. The /freeze/ is /on/ /the/ /language/. The freeze means that /no changes can be officially made to the language, and anyone who uses unofficial changes is *not* speaking Lojban, they are speaking an unofficial dialect/.

(If not, why do you believe the BPFK will never finish - we agree that its unlikely but if lojban's dynamic nature is not the reason, I'm interested as to why you think so)

Because the duties of the BPFK beyond completing documentation of the baseline are to review and (dis)approve any proposed changes to the language, and only languages that aren't used (dead languages) don't change.

What is the overall aim of your reply?

My aim is to point out that because there is a freeze in effect on the language, which means that /no changes/ can be officially made, it doesn't /currently/ matter what the proposal process is, and that the only way to lift said freeze is to finish said documentation. If you're interested in getting that freeze lifted, instructions for how to complete the documentation, which /anyone/ is allowed to do, can be found on this page. All it requires is some volunteers.

If you indeed believe that lojban is an evolving language then I don't actually see the source of fervor. Maybe you are just emphasizing the supposed machinations of policy that are supposed to address the goals that we're trying to accomplish by nominating selpa'i to this position?

Nope. I'm saying that it doesn't currently matter if selpa'i is made the officiator of language change proposals, because no changes are currently allowed, and that when the baseline documentation is complete and change proposals are allowed, I don't like the idea of one person taking over the duties of the BPFK.

Maybe you are emphasizing the supposed freeze and trying to encourage us to not endeavor to change it until this happens, especially by nominating someone with the specific purpose of having the right to do so?

Nope. I'm saying that change can not and will not happen until the freeze is lifted, regardless of endeavors, and that I don't like the idea of one person being the decider of what changes do or do not occur to the language once such freeze has been lifted. That said, I see no problem with selpa'i getting Robin's veto power, or being in charge of other things wrt Lojban, such as being the arbiter of our resources (instructions, the CLL, what-have-you).

Maybe I've missed you completely. Which I definitely don't want because I'd like to address your actual concern.

Yeah, I'd say so.

On Thursday, May 15, 2014 6:39:52 PM UTC-7, aionys wrote:
On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 7:37 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:

...[T]he BPFK's role is to maintain and update the documentation of the official status of the language, as in, what the words mean, how they can or can not be used, etc. etc.

Which includes reviewing and approving any change proposals, as well as updating any relevant documentation accordingly.

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )