Re: [lojban] Re: New soi's scope

[Alex Burka <durka42@gmail.com>]

Yeah, the rules for scope-leaping could be more well-defined, though the concept seems pretty good to me. As it is, it seems if you have two or more {soi} clauses, they have equal scope at the top of the sentence, but I don't know if "equal scope" can be formalized.

How would you see a generalized scope-leaping mechanism working? Would it be some kind of UI to explicitly mark scope? One could argue that scope-leaping should be discouraged as confusing, so maybe {soi} should be the only way to do it.

Is there a succinct description of Xorban's binary branching scope somewhere? I'm not 100% sure what you mean by that.

With respect to selma'o, according to the LMW page, new-{soi} is in a new selma'o SOI (though still terminated by {se'u}), where the only grammatical difference from SEI is that SOI takes a whole sub-bridi rather than a degenerate one. And the selma'o XOI, as described for {xoi} in jbovlaste, seems to have exactly the same grammar. So I suspect the versions of SOI and XOI that we are currently discussing are actually the same selma'o (members of the same selma'o can clearly have different scope semantics; cf. KOhA).

mu'o mi'e la durka ku do'u

On Monday, September 29, 2014 at 4:45 AM, And Rosta wrote:

On 29 Sep 2014 04:17, "la durka" <durka42@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The reason for making it that way (the term "scope leaper" has been used) was precisely to provide a way to escape the normal left-to-right scoping rule, to make certain things easier to express without rearranging the entire sentence structure. A similar proposed bridi modifier (xoi as currently defined in jbovlaste) is right-scoping like tags.
>
> la selpa'i has some discussion in the second half of this post.

Ah, I see. Surely the basic form should be xoi, in selmaho XOI. If scope-leaping is desired -- and it should be admissible only if the scope-leaping rules are robustly defined, which is a tall order -- then surely it should provide variants of all scope-sensitive constituents, without arbitrarily privileging bridi relatives.

(Whether xoi must be in XOI rather than SEI is unclear, partly because the right criteria for selmahofellowhood are unclear (if selmaho means actual grammatical word-class rather than the sense it has in Lojban's current pseudogrammar).)

--And.

>
> mu'o mi'e la durka
>
> El domingo, 28 de septiembre de 2014 20:37:55 UTC-4, And Rosta escribió:
>>
>> I've just noticed that new soi "always takes top scope". Why is that? Not knowing the discussion that led to that choice, I incline to the view that in a reformed Lojban there would be a new syntax that syntacticizes the left-to-right scope rule (so that clause structure is binary branching, as in Xorban), in which case you'd expect soi to scope over what it precedes. Most if not all tags (e.g. tense) could be seen as abbreviations of soi phrases, and hence you'd expect soi phrases to have the scopal properties of tags.
>>
>> --And.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/y0lJZ_kOI2I/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.