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Re: [lojban] Re: tersmu 0.2





On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 7:02 PM, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:

But tags can have semantics which go beyond having something appearing
in the x1 role of an underlying relation, with the rest left up to
context. That may be all a fi'o tag does, but e.g. if ko'a is an event,
then {ba ko'a brode} is an explicitly tensed claim of brode in the
future of ko'a.

Some tags, yes. Tense tags are especially well specified, which is reflected in their underlying relation being a "se-gismu", because the x1 of the gismu is the argument of the tag as bridi operator. But other tags are much more vague.
 
{[tag] [[sumti]]} is a modal operator, whose precise semantics are
entirely up to the definition of the tag. We called this "(i)" upthread.
We agree on this really, don't we?

I suppose, but it would seem that it can be a context dependent operator at least for some tags. 

> I don't think it's too unreasonable for ba'i to provide a relation such
> that basti1 relates to the negation of basti2 rather than to basti2
> directly, since this relation has to be contextual anyway. So I wouldn't
> say it doesn't work with (3'), at worst it takes more work than just
> assuming that "lo nu mi na klama lo zarci" has to take the basti2 role.

I don't see what reasonable general definition of {ba'i ko'a broda}
would make this work. If for any broda it implies the negation of broda,
then {ba'i ko'a na broda} has to imply broda. If it's only for
"positive" broda that it implies the negation of broda, then we'd have
to have a notion of "positive"... and I doubt there's a good one.

It could be something like "replacing with ko'a whichever is the case of lo nu broda and lo nu na broda" or "ko'a basti lo nu xu kau broda".

> > Yes. Another option, if we do want to keep (1), which given the surface
> > form would I agree be nice, would be to take it as part of the semantics
> > of non-tense tags that {[tag] [[sumti]] broda} implies {broda}. That
> > would rule out this use of {ba'i} entirely.
>
> Or we could still have {[tag] [[sumti]] broda} implying {broda}, but then
> (3') not always equivalent to (3) and it would be plain (3), or possibly
>
>  (3'') lo nu broda cu xo'i [tag] do'e lo nu brode  (for tense tags)
>        lo nu brode cu xo'i [tag] do'e lo nu broda (for non-tense tags)
>
> that expands the tag connective. There doesn't seem to be a strong reason
> to disallow (a).

Using anything like {do'e} would be a move of last resort for me...

For many tags do'e can be well defined, but I don't see how you can completely get rid of do'e/co'e/etc for a general rule, unless we have a context-independent binary relation defined for every tag. 
 
> ca ro nu mi xagji kei ko'a fasnu
> ,i ko'a nu ge ko'e fasnu gi ko'i fasnu
> ;i ko'i nu ko'o balvi ko'e
> .i ko'e nu mi klama lo zarci
> .i ko'o nu mi klama lo zdani

OK... now I have to ask what {ko'o balvi ko'e} means!

I expect it to be time-independent - if it holds at some time, then it
holds at all times. But then your expansion doesn't have the intended
meaning.

Must "ko'o balvi ko'e" be time-independent? Can't an event happen sometimes before and sometimes after another? That would seem to be a requirement only for one-instance events.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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