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Re: [lojban] Re: tersmu 0.2


On 28/10/2014 03:42, Martin Bays wrote:
{fi'o broda xy} has a rather vague semantic, it's not clear 
how the bridi is related to the fact/event of "xy broda".

However I think {fi'o xo'i TAG} = {TAG}, by definition.

I guess that can't be literally true, since the former is vague as you
say while the latter isn't.
Maybe should I have said « I think that {fi'o xo'i fi'o broda} = {fi'o broda} ».

{xo'i}'s purpose is to allow using directly the predicates that are
underlying sumtcita whose associated predicate hasn't any Lojban
predicate word (e.g. {pu'i}, {nu'o}, {za'o} and the like).
However I'm not fond of {xo'i}, I'd rather prefer the missing sumtcita 
predicates to be given a real predicate word and be done with it. :)

It's useful for the kind of formal conversions this thread is mostly
about, though. I don't know how to handle {pe [tag]} without using
{xo'i} (and without having a lookup table to find an appropriate
selbri).
I think ultimately using a lookup table would be the best option, so that we definitively get rid of sumtcita in the logical form.

Moreover I don't think we can handle all the sumtcita the same way. If {broda ba xy} implies {lo nu broda cu balvi xy}, can we infer that {broda seka'a mi} implies {lo nu broda cu klama mi}? I don't think so.

A sumtcita ↔ bridi relative clause conversion table could look like the below:

SE ba X  =  xoi ke'a SE balvi X vau
se pi'o X  =  xoi X se pilno fi ke'a vau
SE ka'a X  =  xoi fasnu fa ke'a jo'u lo nu X SE klama vau
fau X  =  xoi fasnu fa ke'a jo'u X vau
(Here {ke'a} stands for the outer bridi.)

Furthermore, {ba} and {pu} are irregular sumtcita, in that their underlying predicate is inversed when they're used with {bo}:
• { brode .ije ba bo brodo } = { brode .ije ba lo nu go'i cu brodo }  (irregular ba/pu sumtcita)
• { brode .ije ki'u bo brodo } = { brode .ije se ki'u lo nu go'i cu brodo }  (regular sumtcita)

By the way: if we take {broda} to be equivalent to {da fasnu gi'e nu
broda}, is {broda xoi brodu} equivalent to {da fasnu gi'e nu broda kei
gi'e brodu}?

Martin
I think that's correct.

mu'o mi'e la .ilmen.


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