Re: [lojban] {la .alis.} book

2015-05-27 16:13 GMT+03:00 Michael Everson <everson@evertype.com>:

On 27 May 2015, at 12:25, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@GMAIL.COM> wrote:

>> A few years ago I pointed out that punctuating and capitalizing Lojban in the usual way did not change the language because it was just decorating the text in various ways; if read aloud there should be no difference. (Same as for writing Lojban in Tengwar.)
>
> yes. If by punctuation you mean English-like punctuation like ".,!?<>" and not words. Modern parsers will accept this input.

That’s what I mean.

> > However, I'd prefer not nesting {sei}-clauses inside {lu ... li'u} quotes since otherwise if you do want to quote a {sei}-clause you are left with uglier ways of doing so.
>
> "On this point,” said Michael, "I very much agree.”
>
> "On this point, I very much agree,” said Michael.
>
> I think given the structure a good translation for Lojban should avoid these kinds of breaks. Easier for performance (reading aloud with character and narrator voices), too.
>
> As you wish. With breaks it'd be
>
> I fi la'e di'u - sei la Maikl pu cusku - mi so'i va'e tugni.

So…

I lu “Fi la’e di’u,” sei la Maikl pu cusku, “mi so’i va’e tugni” li’u.

But the problem again here is that for consistency (and automation) one would expect:

I lu “Fi la’e di’u,” sei la Maikl pu cusku se'u, “mi so’i va’e tugni” li’u.

Wouldn’t one?

As you can see from the grammar it is not required there since {sei} clause is expected to be ended by its selbri, which is {pu cusku} here. So {se'u} is not required. Why so? Because this is how {sei} is defined.

If you need technical details then here they are:

free <- SEI-clause (terms CU-clause?)? selbri SEhU-clause?

[ http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Shortened_PEG_grammar_of_Lojban ]

I don't know what you mean by consistency or automation. With or without {se'u} both sentences mean the same. But why explicitly adding {se'u} if it doesn't change the meaning?

> Without them
> I fi la'e di'u mi so'i va'e tugni, - sei la Maikl pu cusku.

So…

I lu “Fi la'e di'u mi so'i va'e tugni,” li'u sei la Maikl pu cusku [se’u].

Without punctuation between li’u and sei… And I still don’t understand the rationale for not closing the sei/se’u set.

To save two syllables. Actually if for stylistic spurposes we bane all split quotes then there is not need for {sei}.

It will be just

I lu “Fi la'e di'u mi so'i va'e tugni,” li'u pu se cusku la Maikl = " ... " was said by Michael.

I fe lu “Fi la'e di'u mi so'i va'e tugni,” li'u pu cusku fa la Maikl = " ... " said Michael.

> This of course backwards on how English does since you mark "said Michael" whereas written English marks the rest and the spoken English probably will use intonation.

Not entirely sure what you mean by “mark” here.

Quotations marks mark the borders of the quote like what is done in Lojban by {lu ... li'u}

> Although, some might prefer splitting {lu ... li'u} into two quotes tagged with FA. But I agree that split quotes in Lojban or English text might be hard to read for speakers of some languages.
> Without split quotes but with {lu ... li'u} it'd be something like
> I "lu fi la'e di'u mi so'i va'e tugni li'u" pu cusku fa la Maikl.
> "On this point, I very much agree,” said Michael.

I would think lu/li’u would always be required.

Depends on style but in this case I'd always use it, yes.

>>> > Also since probably this project aims at selling books I'd prefer replacing all compound words (lujvo) not in the dictionary with their expanded forms to make the reading easier for people still not fluent in Lojban.
>>
>> One doubts that a Lojban Alice will sell as well as a Latin one. I can say I have often looked things up and not found them in the dictionary. Including very short particles.
>
> Which ones?

I don’t recall off-hand. Maybe it was a sorting error as you mention below.

>> And in one of the dictionaries I have, “mi” is listed on its own at the end of all the words beginning in mi-. That was odd, or an error, I guess.
>
> LaTeX sorting problems, most likely.
>
>>> > As for “Victorian” typographic principles those are IMO compatible with Lojban.
>>
>> Would you like to help with the project? Including possibly “regularizing” the text as suggested above? De-compounding compounds? Restoring balance in terms of “se’u”s?
>
> Please, tell us til what time you accept offers to help.

I’m interested in working with anyone interested in working on this with me. Soon is good.

> If at this time no one volunteers you may automatically assume that I (=la gleki) volunteer shifting the task in my ToDo list higher.

I think it would be fun working with you, and if as you say no one else is interested -- though other voices might be useful or interesting in the discussion @johncowan ;-) — it would be great if you could shift the task higher.

> Also please inform us of the deadline when this task of adapting the text both in punctuation and style has to be done.

As soon as it is done the book can be typeset and published. I suspect it might not take all that much time. But one would have to see.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

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