Re: [lojban] {cukta} as a case study for why the dictionary needs clearer, more detailed entries

[Stela Selckiku <selckiku@gmail.com>]

On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 4:24 AM, Andrew <summerfallsaway@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Specifically, I'd like to see an explanation of the meaning and possible
> usage notes for all the sumti of each brivla. It's not enough to know just
> the main gloss word for a brivla: One must also understand what would be
> appropriate and what would be inappropriate to use as the x1 or x2 or x3...
> of a given brivla.


Well, meaning is a magical thing, so very subtle unexpected problems arise.

I'm not actually familiar with any controversy with {cukta}, maybe the
first place is unsettled but I don't understand the details. So
instead as an example I'll talk about {fenki}. Let's see, what does
the good ol' gimste say about {fenki}:

x1 (action/event) is crazy/insane/mad/frantic/in a frenzy (one sense)
by standard x2

See also bebna, racli, xajmi.

crazy

It's quite clear that the x1 is an event. A fenki is an event. OK
great. But usage doesn't agree. Usage has never agreed. According to
how {fenki} is used, a fenki is usually or always a person.

So now what? If you bring up such a state of affairs, one perfectly
reasonable response is to say, so what, people used {fenki} wrong, the
definition was clear enough, they should start putting in the {jai} or
saying {fekpre} or something.

What's authoritative? What should be? Does it matter more what's in
the gimste or what people have traditionally done for years? What
other standards of aesthetics or rationality have what weight? Who
judges?

Interestingly, the definition written in Lojban reflects how {fenki}
has actually been used, probably because it was written more recently:

x1 to'e racli x2 .i x1 kalsa lo ka zukte x2 .i lo nu x1 cinmo x2 cu vlile

racli; kalsa; zukte; cinmo; vlile; bebna

created by xorxes

This is a clearly worded modern definition in Lojban itself by a very
respected authority. So personally I give great weight to those
definitions in my personal understanding, and I recommend that wise
path to you as well.

So there's something vaguely like a consensus on a current meaning for
{fenki} (except that some unclear number of people violently
disagree). So? So what? So where and how would you like that near
consensus more clearly agreed upon or expressed?

Any process that approves updated definitions any slower than like one
a day certainly can't get through the whole gimste in any reasonable
length of time. Any process that churns through more than one a day
and somehow produces a robust consensus is some sort of intense
process we've never yet invented that unless it's somehow very clever
we couldn't all possibly have time for.

So here's my proposal. This isn't so much a solution as it is half of
a solution. But that's more of a solution than we have at the moment!
My half-solution is that when it's disputed or confused what the
meaning of a brivla is, we figure out what all of the proposals or
options are for its meaning and make new brivla to embody those
alternate meanings.

Making new words to put all the various possible meanings into doesn't
actually solve the problem of reaching a consensus on which meaning to
use for the original gismu. But I think it gets us closer. It gives us
a vocabulary for discussing the possible meanings clearly and
concisely in Lojban. It gives us access to all of the meanings--
importantly, it gives any potential "losing" side a way to retain
their desired meaning as a part of the language while yielding just on
a specific sound for it.

And then when it becomes clear that the clarity we thought we had
about one of the replacement words was actually muddled and we still
don't yet agree at all, we can make replacement replacement words to
tease apart those deeper meanings. I believe that by this process of
exploring and allowing meaning to inhabit infinite refined picky
vocabulary we can develop Lojban into the obsessively specific
language it's always secretly longed to be.

<3,
mungojelly/selckiku

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