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Re: [bpfk] Re: O HAI I FIXT UR LODGEBANZ



On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 4:10 AM, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:
Jonathan Jones, On 16/10/2010 03:58:
On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 8:14 PM, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com <mailto:and.rosta@gmail.com>> wrote:

   John Cowan, On 15/10/2010 23:09:

       2010/10/15 Jorge Llambías<jjllambias@gmail.com <mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com>>:


           OK. I think my issue in the case of Lojban is that quantifiers need to
           be fronted for them to have scope over the matrix, whereas questions
           have matrix scope without being fronted. I find it somewhat dissonant.


       Quantifiers are just arguments, whereas questions are jufra-level
       modifiers that change the overall illocutionary force.  They shouldn't
       be compared.


   In my (unpublished) analysis of English interrogatives (which owes a large debt to xorxes), subordinate interrogatives (aka indirect questions, e.g. _wonder who_) involve a 'WH complementizer' (same word class as _that_) that binds a variable. In main clause interrogatives, the WH complementizer is complement of an illocutionary operator that means "I-hereby-enquire". So e.g. _Who came?_ is syntactically "I-hereby-enquire that(WH)_x it_x (x is a person) came". I recognize that this exposition is 99% incomprehensible, but the point is that there are logically three ingredients, the relationship between two of them involves variable binding, so is very like quantifiers, and the illocutionary ingredient is not really the core ingredient (since it is present only in main clause interrogatives).

   How does Lojban distinguishthe following?
   "I know who she knows that he likes"= "I know that(WH)x she knows that he likes x"
   "I know that she knows who he likes"? = "I know that she knows that(WH)x he likes x"
   -- these differ wrt the scope of the WH complementizer.

   --And.


Can someone put that in layman, please? That entire post is completely beyond me.

The underlying logic of Q+kau type interrogatives involves a du'u-type element that binds a variable within the du'u clause:


"I know who she knows that he likes"= "I know that(WH)x she knows that he likes x"
"I know that she knows who he likes"? = "I know that she knows that(WH)x he likes x"
where "that(WH)x" is the du'u-type element that binds the variable x.

Interrogatives that have the illocutionary force of actual questions -- i.e. sentences that ask questions -- have an additional element expressing the act of question asking. The question "Who came?" is underlyingly "I-hereby-ask-you who came", or rather "I-hereby-ask-you that(WH)x x came".

The relevance of these remarks to the present thread is firstly that I think xorxes was right and John was wrong, and secondly that the pair of "knows...likes" sentences above demonstrate the need for Lojban to be able to indicate the scope of the interrogative.


--And.

Thank you. I think I understand now.

The whole "that(WH)x" construct is a bit confusing. It looks to me like a function, but being a math geek, not a linguistics geek, I can't be sure, and have no idea what the function is if I'm right, thus causing me vast amounts of consternation.

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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