Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: sedu'u and ko

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 1:39 PM, selpa'i <m3o@plasmatix.com> wrote:

Am 07.08.2012 20:47, schrieb Jonathan Jones:

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 4:50 AM, ianek <janek37@gmail.com> wrote:

You basically confirmed what I was saying, but you formally disagreed
with me. I don't understand. {se} acts on selbri, BAI, JA and some
other things, but not on NU. It acts on selbri built with NU, just
like in your examples.

{se} acts on /anything/ with an x2. {du'u} is a NU which has an x2.

No. Despite the wording the CLL uses, a NU itself has no places at all.

Really? Then why do they ALL have place tags in their definition?

du'u: abstractor: predication/bridi abstractor; x₁ is predication [bridi] expressed in sentence x₂.
jei: abstractor: truth-value abstractor; x₁ is truth value of [bridi] under epistemology x₂.
ka: abstractor: property/quality abstractor (-ness); x₁ is quality/property exhibited by [bridi].
li'i: abstractor: experience abstractor; x₁ is x₂'s experience of [bridi] (participant or observer).
ni: abstractor: quantity/amount abstractor; x₁ is quantity/amount of [bridi] measured on scale x₂.
nu: abstractor: generalized event abstractor; x₁ is state/process/achievement/activity of [bridi].
si'o: abstractor: idea/concept abstractor; x₁ is x₂'s concept of [bridi].
su'u: abstractor: generalized abstractor (how); x₁ is [bridi] as a non-specific abstraction of type x₂.
mu'e: abstractor: achievement (event) abstractor; x₁ is the event-as-a-point/achievement of [bridi].
pu'u: abstractor: process (event) abstractor; x₁ is process of [bridi] proceeding in stages x₂.
za'i: abstractor: state (event) abstractor; x₁ is continuous state of [bridi] being true.
zu'o: abstractor: activity (event) abstractor; x₁ is abstract activity of [bridi] composed of x₂.

On 7 Sie, 09:47, Jonathan Jones <eyeo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 1:15 AM, ianek <jane...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > "cmavo clusters" in jbovlaste are somewhat messy, from what I've seen.
> >http://camxes.lojban.org/camxes/?text=se+du%27u+broda
>
> The {se} still acts on {du'u}, not {du'u broda}.

No, it doesn't. SE want to act on selbri (among other things like connectives and TAGs), but NU are *not* selbri. If they were, you could say *{ko'a du'u} or *{lo du'u ku}, but you can't.

>
> Whatever comes after a NU, until the {kei} (elided or not), is "eaten" by
> the NU.
>
> So {[zo'e] du'u broda [kei] [zo'e]} means "x1 is predication "broda"
> expressed in sentence x2".
>
> {se} merely switches the x1 and x2 of {du'u}.

It's easier pe'i to see it as switching x1 and x2 of {du'u broda},
because places are primarily property of selbri, not abstraction
markers.

Abstraction markers /are/ selbri. That's why they have places.

Abstractions are selbri. abstractors (which you call "abstraction markers") are not. They do not have places. All that a NU does is *convert*. It converts a bridi into a selbri. Then you can apply SE on that selbri. The selbri which was created by the NU, *that* has a place structure, depending on the NU used.

> So, for example:
>
> du'u mi nelci lo blanu kei zoi gy. I like Blue. .gy
>
> and
>
> .i zoi gy. I like Blue. .gy se du'u mi nelci lo blanu
>
> are equivalent.

Yes, and how it proves me wrong? I know all that, of course. {du'u mi
nelci lo blanu kei} is a selbri with two places and can be converted
with se. Why do we need to assume that SE act on NU if such assumption
is not needed to explain the grammar?

Because it's not an assumption. It's a fact.

No, it's not.

> You may want to read http://dag.github.com/cll/11/7/

I love how you still treat me as a complete co'a cilre.

No, I treat you like some who apparently needs to read the relevant section of the official text on our language.

No comment. mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

-- .i pau mi me ma .i pa mai ko mi jungau la'e di'u .i ba bo mi va'o lo nu nelci lo nu me ma kau cu barkla .i va'o lo nu na nelci cu denpa ti lo nu mi drata
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