Re: [lojban-beginners] Just to double check, about {da} and quantifiers

[Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>]

2011/6/1 Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>:
> On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 9:24 AM, Michael Turniansky
> <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 2011/5/31 Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>:
>>>
>>> Who said anything about making "ro da poi broda" = "no da poi broda"?
>>
>>  Let me rephrase.  When you said, " If there are no cat-dogs, it's [
>> "ro da poi  ke'a gerku je mlatu cu broda"] true, since for every value
>> of da it will be false that da gerku je mlatu.", that means that there
>> are no cat-dogs.
>
> Right.
>
>>  In a universe where "ro da poi gerku je mlatu" is a
>> nomei,
>
> There's no such universe. "ro da poi gerku je mlatu" is a quantifier,
> so it cannot be a nomei, whatever a nomei is (I think nothing is in
> fact a nomei, by definition, but a quantifier is certainly not a
> nomei).

  No, "ro da..." is not a quantifier. "ro" is a quantifier. "ro da..."
is each of the members of set (qualified by the whatever follows the
poi)

>
>> "no da poi gerku je mlatu" refers to the same thing (an empty
>> set).
>
> No, quantifiers don't refer, they quantify,
>
> In a universe where there are no cat-dogs, both "ro da poi gerku je
> mlatu cu smacu" and "no da poi gerku je mlatu cu smacu" happen to be
> true. Is that what you are saying? But neither of those expressions
> includes a reference.
>> But my major point was simply  that  all things that are
>> cat-dogs are in fact a nomei.
>
> First you would have to explain how anything at all can be a nomei. My
> understanding is that "ro da zo'u da su'o mei", "For every x, x is
> something".  No thing is a nomei.

  Unless there are in fact, no things.

>> So for any broda, " ro da poi ke'a
>> gerku je mlatu ku'o va'o lo du'u da nomei cu broda" is true.
>
> You are now leaving logical simplicity behind by introducing this
> "va'o lo du'u da nomei" term.

  That was the condition that you imposed -- "If there are no catdogs"
 If there are no catdogs, then ro da is a mass composed of an empty
set, otherwise known as a nomei.


> If we try to expand your sentence to
> logical form, we get:
>
> ro da zo'u ganai da gerku je mlatu gi da va'o lo nu da nomei cu broda

  Stop.  Where did you get license to expand it like that?

>
> Now, for each value of "da", "da gerku je mlatu" is false, and "da
> nomei" is also false.
>
> So ganai ... gi ... is true because the first part is false. What did
> the never satisfied "va'o lo du'u da nomei" term add?
>
>> Which I
>> contend is precisely what "[ro] lo no gerku je mlatu cu broda" means
>> and is therefore always true.  I know, I know. You all disagree that
>> it's meaningful. But then you come around and assert what I consider
>> to be the very same thing, just phrased differently.
>
> I don't think we are saying the same thing at all. I assume you are
> not saying that "ro lo PA gerku je mlatu cu broda" expands to "ro da
> poi ke'a gerku je mlatu ku'o va'o lo du'u da PAmei cu broda", but I
> don't really know what it is you are saying it expands to.

  "ro lo PA broda cu brode" expands into  "ge ro lo broda cu brode gi
lo broda cu PAmei", I believe.  The only reason for the existence of
the va'o clause in the particular case we were working with was
because you were stating that there are no catdogs.  I was just making
that clear that is was  a given.  Because if you don't state it, how
do you know? (My answer is, of course, with an inner quantifier of no,
but the va'o works as well).

                 --gejyspa


>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
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