On Saturday 08 November 2008 04:22:48 tijlan wrote:
> 2008/11/8 Pierre Abbat <
phma@phma.optus.nu>
>
> > On Sunday 26 October 2008 11:35:57 tijlan wrote:
> > > no sai zo'e ga'i vi cipni jonai vlilydanlu
> >
> > "zo'e ga'i", IIRR, means that the speaker feels haughtiness toward zo'e,
> > which
> > doesn't make much sense.
>
> Oh, it seems I got it wrong all the way. This "zo'e" should be an object of
> the speaker's contempt. On the contrary, the first message on the first
> door, which I started with "doi ro do ga'i", should reflect the honorific
> speech. So "zo'e ga'inai" is the right one?
a word that's just a placeholder.
It's a placeholder for the concept "something which are bird(s) and/or beast(s)" (I changed "jonai" to "ja"). When the speaker utters the word "zo'e", he is having this concept or image in mind. And this image provokes him into feeling a contempt. So, at least on the speaker's part, it's not unnatural if a UI is put right after a word the referent of which may not be immediately obvious to the reader.
After all, every word is a word. If "zo'e ga'i cipni" is meaningless, so must be "le .iu cipni" or "le cipni .iu" too, since both "le" and "cipni" are words.
> Originally "kemono", it should translate to something like "beast" in
> English. It's meant to be a contrast to "cipni" in fierceness. The speaker
> is emphasizing the absence of objects to hunt by referring to a wide range
> from "birds" to "beasts". A deer can be somewhere between the two
> polarities.
Hmm, there are vlilycpi also, such as eagles and shrikes.
It depends on the fauna in which the speaker/narrator is contextualized, or the epistemological condition thereby. As for "swan", for example, it's not necessary for British people to always assume "there are white ones and black ones", since black swans are uncommon in Britain. Likewise, it need not be the case that the characters in the story anticipate the existence of "vlilycpi" in this particular region of mountains if they already know that such kind of birds is anyway very uncommon in the region.
I'm not sure what
word to use for "kemono", but "bi'i' may make sense between them.
If that can increase the readability, I'm pleased to fix it.
> "Yama-dori" ("mountain-bird"), or "copper pheasant" (
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_Pheasant). I wanted to avoid using
> "cipni", which is too general while "copper phesant" is specific enough,
> and which might cause a confusion with the earlier "cipni", the one the
> guys are looking for in the mountain.
>
> Any suggestion?
"ma'arjipci" is good. Could you check how wide a taxon it should refer to
(just the Copper Pheasant, or the genus, or any pheasant) and add it to
jbovlaste? I'll do the same with "fi'orxruki", which I made up many moons
ago.
Both "jipci" and "ma'arjipci" are of the family Phasianidae, the latter's particularity being the genus Syrmaticus and the species Syrmaticus Soemmerringii. I couldn't confirm whether the quality "ma'a-" should apply to Syrmaticus, so I defined "ma'arjipci" as Syrmaticus Soemmerringii:
http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/ma%27arjipciIsn't a corresponding Latin/Greek fu'ivla also desirable?
> Is "sa'a" within "lu ... li'u" considered to be an actual part of the
> quoted utterance? I think not. If something can be skipped over like that,
> so should "sa'ei" be too, shouldn't it? And it's an experimental cmavo;
> what may be obvious to humans may not already be so to jbofi'e.
"sa'a" marks the previous word as not being part of the quoted
utterance;"sa'ei" marks the next word as being an ideophone. You could
say "sa'ei sa'a niaaon.kuaan.gorgor", but that sounds like the dog uttered an
ideophone and forgot to mark it as such. The dog was just making noises. So I
think that dropping "sa'a" is better. In the sentences that are bare quotes,
without "le co'e cu cusku", "sa'ei" should be left in.
Can't a word make itself editorial or metalinguistic? "sei" already seems to do that as in "lu sei la alis pensi mi zvati ma li'u"? If "sei" can automatically be not part of the original quotation, why not "sa'ei" too?
(BTW the sound is meant to be of the cats, who have been hiding in that last room and are now being attacked by the dogs.)
mu'o mi'e tijlan