Re: [lojban] Illogical English Sign

2) mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo du'u do tolmo'i makau

I read {lo du'u do tolmo'i} as {lo du'u do tolmo'i zo'e} and the way I understand {zo'e} is that it can be anything (including makau). So I see 2 as being a more specific version of 1. Am I wrong here?

hmmm. I think it's about time I went back and re-read le xunre cukta again. I'm starting to tolmo'i some of the lesser used by me stuff.

2010/8/6 Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm still not quite grasping the difference.

Suppose you've forgotten that Beijing is the capital of China, and I
can't forget that you've forgotten something, but I can easily forget
what you've forgotten. Then (3) is true but (2) is false.

> In {mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo du'u do tolmo'i makau} the thing that I
> can't forget is {lo du'u} right?

More precisely, "lo du'u do tolmo'i makau"

> In {mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo fatci be fa lo du'u do tolmo'i} the thing
> that I can't forget is again, the fact that you forgot.

Something, but not necessarily what.

> The thing that I
> forgot seems to be the same thing here, it's the fact that you've forgotten
> (something).

In one case, it's the fact that you've forgotten something (but not
necessarily what that something was), in the other case, it is what
you've forgotten.

> Maybe I'm misunderstanding what {makau} does. Or I'm misunderstanding just
> what {lo du'u} is and how it's different from {lo fatci be fa...}

Forget about "lo fatci be fa lo du'u". It's just more wordage for
plain "lo du'u".

mu'o mi'e xorxes

> 2010/8/6 Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > hmmm, what's the difference between 2 and 3? I was trying to say "I am
>> > not
>> > able to do the event of forgetting the fact that you've forgotten
>> > (something, who knows what)".
>>
>> That would be (3), but "I can't forget what you've forgotten" can't mean
>> that.
>>
>> If what you've forgotten is that Beijing is the capital of China, then
>> (1) says I can't forget that Beijing is the capital of China, and (2)
>> says that I can't forget that you've forgotten that Beijing is the
>> capital of China.
>>
>> Both are "I can't forget what you've forgotten".
>>
>> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>>
>>
>> > 2010/8/6 Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Michael Turniansky
>> >> <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 1:41 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "I can't forget what you've forgotten". Is the artist saying {mi na
>> >> >> kakne
>> >> >> lo nu tolmo'i da poi do tolmo'i ke'a} or {mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i
>> >> >> lo
>> >> >> fatci
>> >> >> be fa lo nu do tolmo'i}?
>> >> >>
>> >> > It HAS to be the first one, in English.. the second is "I can't
>> >> > forget THAT you've forgotten."
>> >>
>> >> There are three cases:
>> >>
>> >> (1) mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo se tolmo'i be do
>> >> "I can't forget what you've forgotten."
>> >>
>> >> (2) mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo du'u do tolmo'i makau
>> >> "I can't forget what you've forgotten."
>> >>
>> >> (3) mi na kakne lo nu tolmo'i lo du'u do tolmo'i
>> >> "I can't forget that you've forgotten."
>> >>
>> >> The English is ambiguous between (1) and (2), but Luke wrote (3) in
>> >> Lojban instead of (2), which goes with "that", not with "what".
>> >>
>> >> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>> >>
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