Re: [lojban] Proposal for Katakana Lojban orthography.

On 3 September 2010 01:12, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

All the "Cu" kana are pronounced without the 'u' bit, as です is pronounced 'des', in the proposal. As such, the ウ has to be there.

That's what i understood about the first option, シウスクウ. You add ウ to シ and ク, since they are supposed to lack the /u/ bit, yes.

What appeared to me odd was that, in シュスクウ, ュ is set for /u/, while also ウ is to represent /u/. Also, normally, the small ュ isn't used individually but as a component of a semi-ligature like シュ. So, i thought you meant the second alternative to be more of an alphabetic (phoneme-based) rather than syllabic (syllable-based) solution for {cusku}, where the last ウ would be redundant.

Otherwise, how would you know that シュスク is pronounced {cusku} and not {cusuku}?

You wouldn't. And a workaround i can think of is to use the interpunct inherent to the Japanese input methods:

cusku -- シュス・ク
cusuku -- シュスク

ジ is pronounced {jy.} and follows the same rules as シ, as in djica: ヅジイシャ.

or ヂシャ. {tci} can unambiguously be チ, and {dji} ヂ.

It has to be that ヂ is {di}, チ is {ti}, and {tci} is ツシイ, or it would break the rest of the proposal.

You 1) split {ci} into シイ, but not {ti} into チイ, and 2) set ツ for {t}? Why not split {ti} into チイ so as to make the scheme more consistent?

In your current proposal (sometimes phoneme-based, sometimes syllable-based):

c -- シ
t -- ツ
i -- イ

ci -- シイ
ti -- チ (rather than more predictable ツイ)
cti -- シチ (rather than more predictable シツイ)
tci -- ツシイ

In my suggestion (always phoneme-based):

c -- シ
t -- チ
i -- イ

ci -- シイ
ti -- チイ
cti -- シチイ
tci -- チシイ

For example: Is ヂクル″ {diklu} or {djiklu}?

It could be even {dkr}.

For {diklu}, maybe ヂイクリウ.
For {djiklu}, maybe ヂジイクリウ.

ヲis pronounced {.y.}

To write {y'u}, use ハウ.

ハウ is most probably {xau} or {'au}.

{'u} is tricky. It would have to be distinguishable from {fu} and {xu}, and both Katakana and Hiragana have none for {'u} and {xu}. フ is actually {fu}, but you have assigned it to {fy}.

Because only フ is pronounced with the {fy.} sound, it is {fy.}. So, {fa}, {fi}, {fu},{fe}, {fo} are フア, フイ, フウ, フエ, フオ.

Right, that would be reasonable for a phoneme-based Kana scheme.

Since this means there is no 'hu', I decided on using ハウ to mean that. Doing a subscript ウ would be preferable. I considered ヒウ, ヘウ, and ホウ as well, and ハウ just looks the best to me.

Sounds fine to me too.

I also considered making ヘ be {y'y} instead of {y'e}, which would mean that ハ, ヒ, and ホ aren't used at all.

ヘ is a single line and looks a bit counter-intuitive for {y'y}. Why not ホ, which has a visual symmetry analogous to {y'y} as a whole?

ワ is pronounced {vy.}, and followed by a vowel, as in vu: ワウ.

ワ is actually {ua}. ワウ is {uau}.

The foreign {v} sound in Japanese is typically transliterated as ヴ, as in ラヴ for "love".

I didn't know that. I also have no idea how to make that symbol with a standard U.S. keyboard, so....

In the Microsoft IME "full-width Katakana" mode, you get ヴ by simply typing "vu".

The reason I chose ワ for {vy.} is because we have ウア, so ワ isn't needed for it. The ウ" works for me.

So, {ua} is ウア, and {u.a} is ウ．ア?

The 'k' kana with º is pronounced {xy.} as in xrula: クºルウラ″ア.

That's an interesting idea. ゜ for a non-labial is never used in formal Japanese. It looks funny to the natives, so it sometimes gets used in manga for comical expressions.

{xy.} and {ky.} are closely related, and ガ, etc. are already used for {gV}, so that was my best idea. I know that's not what the maru symbolizes. (It is called maru, yes?)

Sounds fine.

(Yes, it's called "maru" colloquially or "handakuten" linguistically.)