Luke Bergen, On 30/09/2010 14:26:There'll not be any rattling in your throat, but it might be that you produce /x/ in /ixi/ with a tighter constriction than /'/ in /i'i/, and that this causes saliva to vibrate in the narrow channel, giving rise to the phonetic phenomenon called 'scrape'.
weird. I didn't understand a thing that you said, and maybe I'm mispronouncing "x" but I can discern a difference between /i'i/ and /ixi/. I judge which one I'm hearing based on whether or not I can hear that throat rattling sound.
Stevo:
And: I have no problem differentiating between {i'i} and {ixi}.
With regard to differentiating in your speech, one possibility is that you might be deluded (as people often are about their own speech), and another, more likely, is that you have fixed on allophones that are reliably distinct. Perhaps you have [θ] in /i'i/; or perhaps you have a scrapey [x] in /ixi/.
With regard to differentiating in your hearing, I would wager that you can't reliably differentiate between /x/ and voiceless glide realizations of /'/ in /i_i/; afaik no language has minimal pairs contrasting voiceless approximants and fricatives.
--And.
On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 4:47 AM, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com <mailto:and.rosta@gmail.com>> wrote:<mailto:jezuch@interia.pl>>:
It's phonetically impractical to get [h] between most vowels,
because a criterion for [h] is that there is no aerodynamically
significant supraglottal narrowing of stricture. So while [h] for
/'/ in /e'e/ or /y'y/ is practicable, [h] for /'/ in, say, /o'o/ or
/u'u/ or /i'i/ is not (because the flanking vowels create
aerodynamically significant supraglottal stricture).
One can easily observe that [aha] and [axa] are rather easy to
differentiate, whereas /i'i/ and /ixi/ will be effectively
indistinguishable (as [aça]) unless a very different allophone of
/'/, such as [θ], is used.
--And.
Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG, On 30/09/2010 01:48:
Krzysztof Sobolewski wrote:
Dnia środa, 29 września 2010 o 19:13:54 Jorge Llambías
napisał(a):
2010/9/29 Krzysztof Sobolewski <jezuch@interia.pl
<mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>. <mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>.
So could some confirm that using the same sound for
{x} and {'} does not introduce ambiguity? :)
It introduces plenty of ambiguity. Just consider any
CV'V cmavo for a
start, which becomes indistinguishable from the two
cmavo CV xV.
Well then, I think I'll stick with silent {'}. But this is
problematic with things like {du'u} or {zo'o}. Is there any
hope for people who don't see (hear) any difference between
[x] and [h] (both in IPA, according to Wikipedia)? ;)
I haven't been following this, but "'" can be any voiceless
glide (approximant), not necessarily IPA "h".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Approximant_consonant
discusses this, and gives several examples. It says this about "h"
Occasionally, the glottal "fricatives" are called
approximants, since
[h] typically has no more frication than voiceless
approximants, but
> they are often phonations of the glottis without any accompanying
> manner or place of articulation.
suggesting that the thing to avoid in distinguishing x and h is
the noticeable frication. Since I don't know Polish, I can't
help beyond that point. But perhaps our Russian native speakers
have a similar problem and could comment.
(People have at times chosen to express the rule as "any
non-lojbanic voiceless consonant", with the most striking
example being someone here in Virginia who used a voiceless "th"
fricative. As I recall, it sounded real funny, but it was
understandable.)
lojbab
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