Re: [lojban] Fw: xagrai and superlatives

[Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>]

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 2:51 PM, A. PIEKARSKI <totus@rogers.com> wrote:
>
> So point 3) would now be:
>
> 3) Create the lujvo, with the rafsi in reverse order of the order of the gismu
> in the bridi, leaving the places in the same order as in the bridi, but with
> subordinate bridi places at the end.

That may or may not work as a general rule. We would need to examine
what happens in general to the x3 place of a gismu used as the main
component of a lujvo, when the x2 takes a property or some other NU.

The problem with any such strict rules are all the silly "by standard"
and "under conditions" and such places that we don't really want to be
promoted in the lujvo.

> Reduce the places by combining those that have the
> same meaning.

That should be part of step 2. If they didn't get combined at the
point when you write the expansion/definition, I don't see why they
would be combined later on.

> from:    t1 traji loka x1 xamgu x2 x3 kei t3 t4
>
> to:        t1=x1 xagrai t3 t4 x2 x3

The expansion is not "t1 traji lo ka x1 xamgu ...", it's "t1 traji lo
ka ce'u xamgu ..."

It doesn't make sense to have a property without a "ce'u" place.

> Obviously, there will be disagreements as to which places can be deleted.
> I believe some purists may argue that t3 should be kept because, although
> it is 'bloated', it is not 'nonsense'.  In other words we need to use the gismu
> as they currently are, not as we would like them to be.

If we do that, they will never become what we would like them to be,
so it seems like a bad policy.

Personally, as you know, I think the x3 of traji is indeed nonsense.
One of the worst pieces of nonsense as far as place structures go
because it is not in the last place where it can be safely ignored,
but inserted before a useful argument place, so it's always getting in
the way.

> So if I understand you, taking into account your disapproval of t3, and
> corrections to point 3), {xagrai} should be
>
> t1=x1 xagrai t4 x2 x3
> t1=x1 is the best among t4 for x2 by standard x3

Right.

> which certainly is not the jbovlaste entry:
>
> t1=x1 is optimal in property t2 of extremity t3 among range t4.

Right.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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