Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation

[John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>]

The point keeps being that what you are doing is seeking information not an 
expression of some sentiment, emotion, or what have you.  The answer is, as you 
say, yes or no, and those are the answers to factual questions, nothing to do 
with 'ui' or even 'a'o', so why bring them into the question at all.  The way to 
ask whether you agree or not is 'xu do tugni' not 'iepei', which is something 
like "You damned betcha , innit?"  You are asking about sommone's attitude and 
you want a factual answer; therefore, you are asking a factual quest, a bridi 
with 'xu' attached -- or with a question word at some point in it.  That's how 
you perform that speech act in a logical language.  This is not Neanderthal, 
after all, where the conversation is entirely in grunts.
Expressing a whatever need not come from the gut and may go through the brai, 
but it is still a different act from stating a fact or asking a factual question 
(any kind of question as far as I can see).  The reason for the myth is to drive 
home tis fundamental point, which obviously needs some more driving.
'la'a cai' expresses your confidence in the following statement being true, less 
than 'ju'o' more than 'la'a' alone, but it is a discursive, not a modal and is 
not false if the event is unlikely, as the modal case would be. It is grounds 
for thinking that you believe the event likely (though not definitive grounds); 
it is not grounds for thinking the event is likely, nor does it claim to be (or 
anything else for that matter).


----- Original Message ----
From: Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 5:14:19 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Time for the perenial other-centric-.ui conversation

On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 7:34 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
> But there is something odd about asking someone to express on a scale.

Yes/no is the main gist of the question. How nuanced to make the
answer is up to the one responding. For example: "iepei", "do you
agree?". I don't really care for a nuanced answer, but you may feel
compelled to make it nuanced anyway.

> Presumably, he has already expressed his degree of happiness in some way, 
since
> that is what we are asking about -- refine your expression.

I don't think that would be the usual case.

> But under these
> conditions what we are asking for in not actually an expression but 
>information,
> we want to know a fact.  And that just isn't what UI (and UICAI) are about.

We are asking about someone's attitude: "iepei", "do you agree?",
"e'apei", "may I?"(Do you give your permission?"), ".u'upei", "any
regrets?", "je'epei", "OK?" and so on.

> If
> I stop and consider whether to say 'uicai' or 'uicu'i' or 'uinai' or decide to
> stick with just 'ui' I am no longer expressing my happiness in any natural 
>sense
> of the word, but rather describing it.

The idea that UIs must somehow come directly from the gut and not pass
through the brain is one of those Lojbanic myths that have no reason
of being.

> If I burst in the room and say "uicai, I
> passed", then I am probably expressing my extreme happiness.  If, on the other
> hand, I stop to analyze my feelings and then say 'uicai' I am more likely
> seeking to give information -- especially if I do it in answer to a question.
>  And UICAI is not about giving information.

"la'acai" means that I consider something extremely likely. It is
certainly informative. I don't see why UIs can't contain any
information.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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