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Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags?
.i ki'edo'u u'a mi ca burna
.i mu'o mi'e .alyn.
On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 03:00:52PM -0400, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote:
> na xu se jetnu lo du'u <<lu .i mi djica lo za'i ponse fa do lo rokci
> li'u>> <<lu .i mi djica lo za'i do ponse lo rokci li'u>> dunli lo smuni
>
> On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 2:36 PM, .alyn.post.
> <[1]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
>
> .i o'onai ke'a si ko'a
>
> .i mi fanva lu ko xu li'u fu zoi .gy. "is it true that you will make
> it true?" .gy. .a zoi .gy. "Can you make it true?" .gy.
>
> .i mi na jimpe lo nu cusku ko'a va'o lo selma'o be su'o zo fa to zoi
> .fanva. I can't say my example sentence without using FA .fanva. toi
>
> .i ki'edo'u mi ca me lo jimpe poi do xusra
> .i mu'o mi'e .alyn.
>
> On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 01:59:21PM -0400, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote:
> > � � doi .alan.post.
> >
> > � � ki'a ru'e .i na jimpe fi zo ko joi zo xu gi'e na jimpe fi lo mukti
> do'e zo
> > � � ke'a
> >
> > � � ni'o
> > � � mi na pu cusku lo du'u va'o ro zo'e na pilno lo selma'o zo fa .i
> ku'i
> > � � cusku lo du'u va'o lo na'e sarcu ku na pilno
> >
> > � � (I'm not quite sure what you meant by using "ko" and "xu"
> together, and
> > � � I'm not sure why you used "ke'a"
> >
> > � � I didn't say never to use FA; I said that they shouldn't be used
> when not
> > � � necessary.)
> >
> > � � On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 12:37 PM, .alyn.post.
> > � � <[1][2]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
> >
> > � � � doi .arpis.
> >
> > � � � .i ko xu ba cusku ke'a goi lu .i mi djica lo za'i ponse fa do lo
> rokci
> > � � � li'u
> > � � � poi na pilno zo fa .i mi na jimpe lo cusku be ke'a
> > � � � .i mu'o mi'e .alyn.
> >
> > � � � On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 12:01:05PM -0400, .arpis. wrote:
> > � � � > I'm biased, but I find the English structure to be more
> understandable
> > � � � and
> > � � � > natural, and not only because I speak English.
> > � � � >
> > � � � > The selbri comes early in the sentence, allowing the listener
> to start
> > � � � > understanding the relationships between the sumti before the
> sentence
> > � � � is
> > � � � > finished, and FA tags, unlike case endings, have no intrinsic
> meaning
> > � � � > apart from the selbri.
> > � � � >
> > � � � > Also, as I understand it, the FA tags are meant to provide the
> > � � � facility to
> > � � � > reorder sentences when it is convenient, e.g. {mi klama fu lo
> karce},
> > � � � not
> > � � � > to allow arbitrary re-orderings; that's what BAI can be for. A
> > � � � somewhat
> > � � � > contrived example: {kla la .suzyn. xekla lo karce tekla la
> .berlin.
> > � � � sekla
> > � � � > la .paris. co'e}
> > � � � >
> > � � � > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 11:36 AM, Joel T.
> > � � � <[1][2][3]joelofarabia@gmail.com>
> > � � � > wrote:
> > � � � >
> > � � � > OK, fair enough. I hope my comments didn't seem overly
> dogmatic. If
> > � � � > indeed as you say all these elements are indispensable then I
> am
> > � � � > wrong, and as I said in my original post, I couldn't be
> happier!
> > � � � >
> > � ? � > In that case it would be like me saying that English is flawed
> because
> > � � � > you can remove all the words of French origin and you'd still
> have a
> > � � � > complete language. The premise is correct, but the inertia of
> current
> > � � � > usage means that this will never happen. I just never thought
> that
> > � � � > such variety could be present in the grammar of a language and
> not
> > � � � > just the vocabulary.
> > � � � >
> > � � � > I suppose I should have really started by giving an example.
> In
> > � � � > Chapter 2 of Lojban for Beginners
> > � � � ([2][3][4]http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/
> > � � � > lojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html), if I have
> understood
> > � � � > correctly it basically tells me that if I feel like it I can
> say (and
> > � � � > therefore have to be able to understand):
> > � � ? >
> > � � � > la suzyn. klama la paris. la berlin. zo'e le karce (English
> structure)
> > � � � >
> > � � � > and
> > � � � >
> > � � � > la suzyn. fu le karce fi la berlin. fe la paris. klama
> (Turkish
> > � � � > structure)
> > � � � >
> > � � � > You can imagine how hard it is for native English speakers to
> get used
> > � � � > to Turkish sentence structure, in fact my parents never quite
> did. At
> > � � � > least in Turkish when you change the structure of a sentence
> you do it
> > � � � > for a reason, like emphasis. But Lojban expects me to be able
> to adapt
> > � � � > mid-paragraph for somebody who uses any and all possible
> sentence
> > � � � > structures on a whim! My brain would flip!
> > � � � >
> > � � � > Everything I know about language tells me that people get used
> to
> > � � � > expressing themselves according to specific structures. Which
> is why I
> > � � � > arrived at the conclusion that any population of fluent Lojban
> > � � � > speakers would very quickly get used to ordering certain
> sentences in
> > � � � > certain ways instead of constantly mixing up their grammar,
> which
> > � � � > requires conscious thought.
> > � � � >
> > � � � > Again, please do correct me if I'm wrong, and I get the
> feeling I
> > � � � > probably am. I would like to thank everybody who has replied
> to my
> > � � � > original post for taking it in the spirit intended. You have
> all
> > � � � > encouraged me to take a closer look at Lojban!
> > � � � > On Apr 5, 5:22 pm, Luke Bergen
> <[3][4][5]lukeaber...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > � � � > > Yeah Joel, I think what you're missing at this early stage
> in your
> > � � � > learning
> > � � � > > is that both FA *and* knowing the place structures are
> extremely
> > � � � > important
> > � � � > > if you want to be fluent.
> > � � � > >
> > � � � > > I understand your concerns. You agreed that I was
> representing your
> > � � � > > argument accurately. What you may have misunderstood was
> that my
> > � � � last
> > � � � > > paragraph about "if one group of people liked the place
> > � � � structure....
> > � � � > been
> > � � � > > dropped out of the language by this group)" was mildly
> sarcastic.
> > � � � > >
> > � � � > > The idea of a group of people using lojban and simply
> > � � � > forgetting/dropping FA
> > � � � > > and/or the default place structure of the gismu is
> completely
> > � � � absurd.
> > � � � > It
> > � � � > > could happen, but it would take (my guess) centuries of
> shifting for
> > � � � > that to
> > � � � > > happen. It's so fundamental to a proper understanding of the
> > � � � language
> > � � � > that
> > � � � > > if anyone dropped FA or began forgetting the place
> structures, I
> > � � � would
> > � � � > argue
> > � � � > > that it was darn-near a completely different language.
> > � � � > >
> > � � � > > I'd put it on par with English switching to a system more
> like what
> > � � � > they
> > � � � > > have in Turkey (as you describe it). Such a thing would be
> (at best)
> > � � � > an
> > � � � > > extremely bastardized version of English. Likewise, lojban
> without
> > � � � FA
> > � � � > would
> > � � � > > be quite a stretch.
> > � � � > >
> > � � � > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:17 AM, Joel T.
> > � � � <[4][5][6]joelofara...@gmail.com>
> > � � � > wrote:
> > � � � > > > That was my point exactly. True fluency means completely
> > � � � > internalizing
> > � � � > > > a language so that the words just flow out of your mouth
> without
> > � � � > > > thinking. You're completely "out of the book" to use a
> chess
> > � � � > > > expression. And a community of truly fluent people would
> be
> > � � � > influenced
> > � � � > > > more by each other than any conscious thought given to the
> > � � � official
> > � � � > > > rules of grammar. A true Sapir-Whorf test would demand
> nothing
> > � � � less.
> > � � � > >
> > � � � > > > The point I'm making about running two systems
> side-by-side is
> > � � � that
> > � � � > in
> > � � � > > > any community of truly fluent people, either one of them
> would get
> > � � � > > > phased out, or they would diverge in meaning, usage,
> connotation
> > � � � > etc.
> > � � � > > > At the very least it would become a way of differentiating
> between
> > � � � > > > cliques, which is the thin end of the wedge for
> dialectisation.
> > � � � You
> > � � � > > > just can't have two ways of doing exactly the same thing
> with only
> > � � � > > > whim to choose between them. It's great in class, but in
> the field
> > � � � > > > it's not tenable. It's not how language works.
> > � � � > >
> > � � � > > > On Apr 4, 10:04 pm, Luke Bergen
> <[5][6][7]lukeaber...@gmail.com>
> > � � � wrote:
> > � � � > > > > I think his point was that these dialectic splits could
> result
> > � � � in
> > � � � > two
> > � � � > > > groups
> > � � � > > > > of people not being able to understand one another.
> > � � � > >
> > � � � > > > > If one group of people liked using the place structure
> so much
> > � � � > that they
> > � � � > > > > just ignored FA what would happen if they saw something
> like {fi
> > � � � > lo zdani
> > � � � > > > cu
> > � � � > > > > klama fa mi lo zarci} and got completely confused (you
> know, cuz
> > � � � > > > generations
> > � � � > > > > later FA would have basically been dropped out of the
> language
> > � � � by
> > � � � > this
> > � � � > > > > group).
> > � � � > >
> > � � � > > > > On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Michael Turniansky <
> > � � � > > > [6][7][8]mturnian...@gmail.com>wrote:
> > � � � > >
> > � � � > > > > > On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Joel T.
> > � � � > <[7][8][9]joelofara...@gmail.com>
> > � � � > > > wrote:
> > � � � > >
> > � � � > > > > >> In any case, surely running two systems side-by-side
> is
> > � � � asking
> > � � � > for
> > � � � > > > > >> dialectisation (is that a word?), where speakers in
> one area
> > � � � > get used
> > � � � > > > > >> to one system while speakers in another prefer the
> other?
> > � � � > >
> > � � � > > > > > It can, and does. But we consider the flexibility to
> be a
> > � � � plus.
> > � � � > > > That
> > � � � > > > > > way, any person coming from a natural language
> background of
> > � � � > say,
> > � � � > > > Turkish,
> > � � � > > > > > can from sentences the way that seems most natural to
> them,
> > � � � > while
> > � � � > > > someone
> > � � � > > > > > coming from an English background can form setnences
> the most
> > � � � > natural
> > � � � > > > way to
> > � � � > > > > > them. And both will be understood equally well. We
> had, for
> > � � � > example,
> > � � � > > > a
> > � � � > > > > > while a back, a discussion over which was "better": to
> use
> > � � � "cu"
> > � � � > often,
> > � � � > > > or to
> > ? � � > > > > > totally eschew it in favor of sumti that are competely
> > � � � > terminated so
> > � � � > > > that
> > � � � > > > > > there was no need for it (i.e. "lo gerku cu barda" vs.
> "lo
> > � � � gerku
> > � � � > ku
> > � � � > > > > > barda"). There are vocal proponents on each side, so
> it
> > � � � amounts
> > � � � > to a
> > � � � > > > > > dialectical split, but.. so what?
> > � � � > > > > > --gejyspa
> > � � � > >
> > � � � > > > > > --
> > � � � > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed
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> > � � � > > > > > "lojban" group.
> > � � � > > > > > To post to this group, send email to
> > � � � [8][9][10]lojban@googlegroups.com.
> > � � � > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > ? � � > > > > > [9][10][11]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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> > � � � > > > >
> >[10][11][12]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
> > � � � > >
> > � � � > > > --
> > � � � > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to
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> > � � � > Groups
> > � � � > > > "lojban" group.
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> > � � � [11][12][13]lojban@googlegroups.com.
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> > � � � >
> > � � � > --
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> > � � � > Groups "lojban" group.
> > � � � > To post to this group, send email to
> [14][15][16]lojban@googlegroups.com.
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> > � � � > [15][16][17]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > � � � > For more options, visit this group at
> > � � � > [16][17][18]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
> > � � � >
> > � � � > --
> > � � � > mu'o mi'e .arpis.
> > � � � >
> > � � � > --
> > � � � > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> Google
> > � � � Groups
> > � � � > "lojban" group.
> > � � � > To post to this group, send email to
> [18][19]lojban@googlegroups.com.
> > � � � > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > � � � > [19][20]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > � � � > For more options, visit this group at
> > � � � > [20][21]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
> > � � � >
> > � � � > References
> > � � � >
> > � � � > Visible links
> > � � � > 1. mailto:[21][22]joelofarabia@gmail.com
> > � � � > 2.
> > � � �
> [22][23]http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html
> > � � � > 3. mailto:[23][24]lukeaber...@gmail.com
> > � � � > 4. mailto:[24][25]joelofara...@gmail.com
> > � � � > 5. mailto:[25][26]lukeaber...@gmail.com
> > � � � > 6. mailto:[26][27]mturnian...@gmail.com
> > � � � > 7. mailto:[27][28]joelofara...@gmail.com
> > � � � > 8. mailto:[28][29]lojban@googlegroups.com
> > � � � > 9. mailto:[29][30]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > � � � > 10. [30][31]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> > � � � > 11. mailto:[31][32]lojban@googlegroups.com
> > � � � > 12. mailto:[32][33]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > � � � > 13. [33][34]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> > � � � > 14. mailto:[34][35]lojban@googlegroups.com
> > � � � > 15. mailto:[35][36]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > � � � > 16. [36][37]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> > � � � --
> > � � � .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du
> >
> > � � � --
> > � � � You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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> > � � � [38][39]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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> > � � � [39][40]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
> >
> > � � --
> > � � Alex R
> >
> > � � --
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> > � � [43]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
> >
> > References
> >
> > � � Visible links
> > � � 1. mailto:[44]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
> > � � 2. mailto:[45]joelofarabia@gmail.com
> > � � 3. [46]http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/
> > � � 4. mailto:[47]lukeaber...@gmail.com
> > � � 5. mailto:[48]joelofara...@gmail.com
> > � � 6. mailto:[49]lukeaber...@gmail.com
> > � � 7. mailto:[50]mturnian...@gmail.com
> > � � 8. mailto:[51]joelofara...@gmail.com
> > � � 9. mailto:[52]lojban@googlegroups.com
> > � 10. mailto:[53]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > � 11. [54]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> > � 12. mailto:[55]lojban@googlegroups.com
> > � 13. mailto:[56]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > � 14. [57]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> > � 15. mailto:[58]lojban@googlegroups.com
> > � 16. mailto:[59]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > � 17. [60]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> > � 18. mailto:[61]lojban@googlegroups.com
> > � 19. mailto:[62]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > � 20. [63]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> > � 21. mailto:[64]joelofarabia@gmail.com
> > � 22.
> [65]http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html
> > � 23. mailto:[66]lukeaber...@gmail.com
> > � 24. mailto:[67]joelofara...@gmail.com
> > � 25. mailto:[68]lukeaber...@gmail.com
> > � 26. mailto:[69]mturnian...@gmail.com
> > � 27. mailto:[70]joelofara...@gmail.com
> > � 28. mailto:[71]lojban@googlegroups.com
> > � 29. mailto:[72]lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > � 30. [73]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> > � 31. mailto:[74]lojban@googlegroups.com
> > � 32. mailto:[75]lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > � 33. [76]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> > � 34. mailto:[77]lojban@googlegroups.com
> > � 35. mailto:[78]lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > � 36. [79]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> > � 37. mailto:[80]lojban@googlegroups.com
> > � 38. mailto:[81]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > � 39. [82]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> --
> .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du
>
> --
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>
> --
> � � � � � � Alex R
>
> References
>
> Visible links
> 1. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
> 2. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
> 3. mailto:joelofarabia@gmail.com
> 4. http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/
> 5. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
> 6. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
> 7. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
> 8. mailto:mturnian...@gmail.com
> 9. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
> 10. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 11. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 12. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 13. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 14. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 15. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 16. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 17. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 18. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 19. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 20. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 21. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 22. mailto:joelofarabia@gmail.com
> 23. http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html
> 24. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
> 25. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
> 26. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
> 27. mailto:mturnian...@gmail.com
> 28. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
> 29. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 30. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 31. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 32. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 33. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 34. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 35. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 36. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 37. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 38. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 39. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 40. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 41. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 42. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 43. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 44. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
> 45. mailto:joelofarabia@gmail.com
> 46. http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/
> 47. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
> 48. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
> 49. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
> 50. mailto:mturnian...@gmail.com
> 51. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
> 52. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 53. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 54. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 55. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 56. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 57. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 58. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 59. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 60. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 61. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 62. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 63. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 64. mailto:joelofarabia@gmail.com
> 65. http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html
> 66. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
> 67. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
> 68. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
> 69. mailto:mturnian...@gmail.com
> 70. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
> 71. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 72. mailto:lojban%25252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 73. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 74. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 75. mailto:lojban%25252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 76. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 77. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 78. mailto:lojban%25252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 79. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 80. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 81. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 82. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 83. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 84. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 85. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
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- References:
- Re: [lojban] I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags?
- From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
- Re: [lojban] I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags?
- From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
- [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags?
- From: "Joel T." <joelofarabia@gmail.com>
- Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags?
- From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
- [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags?
- From: "Joel T." <joelofarabia@gmail.com>
- Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags?
- From: ".arpis." <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com>
- Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags?
- From: ".alyn.post." <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org>
- Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags?
- From: Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com>
- Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags?
- From: ".alyn.post." <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org>
- Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags?
- From: Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com>