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Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags?



.i ki'edo'u u'a mi ca burna
.i mu'o mi'e .alyn.

On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 03:00:52PM -0400, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote:
>    na xu se jetnu lo du'u <<lu .i mi djica lo za'i ponse fa do lo rokci
>    li'u>> <<lu .i mi djica lo za'i do ponse lo rokci li'u>> dunli lo smuni
> 
>    On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 2:36 PM, .alyn.post.
>    <[1]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
> 
>      .i o'onai ke'a si ko'a
> 
>      .i mi fanva lu ko xu li'u fu zoi .gy. "is it true that you will make
>      it true?" .gy. .a zoi .gy. "Can you make it true?" .gy.
> 
>      .i mi na jimpe lo nu cusku ko'a va'o lo selma'o be su'o zo fa to zoi
>      .fanva. I can't say my example sentence without using FA .fanva. toi
> 
>      .i ki'edo'u mi ca me lo jimpe poi do xusra
>      .i mu'o mi'e .alyn.
> 
>      On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 01:59:21PM -0400, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote:
>      > � � doi .alan.post.
>      >
>      > � � ki'a ru'e .i na jimpe fi zo ko joi zo xu gi'e na jimpe fi lo mukti
>      do'e zo
>      > � � ke'a
>      >
>      > � � ni'o
>      > � � mi na pu cusku lo du'u va'o ro zo'e na pilno lo selma'o zo fa .i
>      ku'i
>      > � � cusku lo du'u va'o lo na'e sarcu ku na pilno
>      >
>      > � � (I'm not quite sure what you meant by using "ko" and "xu"
>      together, and
>      > � � I'm not sure why you used "ke'a"
>      >
>      > � � I didn't say never to use FA; I said that they shouldn't be used
>      when not
>      > � � necessary.)
>      >
>      > � � On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 12:37 PM, .alyn.post.
>      > � � <[1][2]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
>      >
>      > � � � doi .arpis.
>      >
>      > � � � .i ko xu ba cusku ke'a goi lu .i mi djica lo za'i ponse fa do lo
>      rokci
>      > � � � li'u
>      > � � � poi na pilno zo fa .i mi na jimpe lo cusku be ke'a
>      > � � � .i mu'o mi'e .alyn.
>      >
>      > � � � On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 12:01:05PM -0400, .arpis. wrote:
>      > � � � > I'm biased, but I find the English structure to be more
>      understandable
>      > � � � and
>      > � � � > natural, and not only because I speak English.
>      > � � � >
>      > � � � > The selbri comes early in the sentence, allowing the listener
>      to start
>      > � � � > understanding the relationships between the sumti before the
>      sentence
>      > � � � is
>      > � � � > finished, and FA tags, unlike case endings, have no intrinsic
>      meaning
>      > � � � > apart from the selbri.
>      > � � � >
>      > � � � > Also, as I understand it, the FA tags are meant to provide the
>      > � � � facility to
>      > � � � > reorder sentences when it is convenient, e.g. {mi klama fu lo
>      karce},
>      > � � � not
>      > � � � > to allow arbitrary re-orderings; that's what BAI can be for. A
>      > � � � somewhat
>      > � � � > contrived example: {kla la .suzyn. xekla lo karce tekla la
>      .berlin.
>      > � � � sekla
>      > � � � > la .paris. co'e}
>      > � � � >
>      > � � � > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 11:36 AM, Joel T.
>      > � � � <[1][2][3]joelofarabia@gmail.com>
>      > � � � > wrote:
>      > � � � >
>      > � � � > OK, fair enough. I hope my comments didn't seem overly
>      dogmatic. If
>      > � � � > indeed as you say all these elements are indispensable then I
>      am
>      > � � � > wrong, and as I said in my original post, I couldn't be
>      happier!
>      > � � � >
>      > � ? � > In that case it would be like me saying that English is flawed
>      because
>      > � � � > you can remove all the words of French origin and you'd still
>      have a
>      > � � � > complete language. The premise is correct, but the inertia of
>      current
>      > � � � > usage means that this will never happen. I just never thought
>      that
>      > � � � > such variety could be present in the grammar of a language and
>      not
>      > � � � > just the vocabulary.
>      > � � � >
>      > � � � > I suppose I should have really started by giving an example.
>      In
>      > � � � > Chapter 2 of Lojban for Beginners
>      > � � � ([2][3][4]http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/
>      > � � � > lojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html), if I have
>      understood
>      > � � � > correctly it basically tells me that if I feel like it I can
>      say (and
>      > � � � > therefore have to be able to understand):
>      > � � ? >
>      > � � � > la suzyn. klama la paris. la berlin. zo'e le karce (English
>      structure)
>      > � � � >
>      > � � � > and
>      > � � � >
>      > � � � > la suzyn. fu le karce fi la berlin. fe la paris. klama
>      (Turkish
>      > � � � > structure)
>      > � � � >
>      > � � � > You can imagine how hard it is for native English speakers to
>      get used
>      > � � � > to Turkish sentence structure, in fact my parents never quite
>      did. At
>      > � � � > least in Turkish when you change the structure of a sentence
>      you do it
>      > � � � > for a reason, like emphasis. But Lojban expects me to be able
>      to adapt
>      > � � � > mid-paragraph for somebody who uses any and all possible
>      sentence
>      > � � � > structures on a whim! My brain would flip!
>      > � � � >
>      > � � � > Everything I know about language tells me that people get used
>      to
>      > � � � > expressing themselves according to specific structures. Which
>      is why I
>      > � � � > arrived at the conclusion that any population of fluent Lojban
>      > � � � > speakers would very quickly get used to ordering certain
>      sentences in
>      > � � � > certain ways instead of constantly mixing up their grammar,
>      which
>      > � � � > requires conscious thought.
>      > � � � >
>      > � � � > Again, please do correct me if I'm wrong, and I get the
>      feeling I
>      > � � � > probably am. I would like to thank everybody who has replied
>      to my
>      > � � � > original post for taking it in the spirit intended. You have
>      all
>      > � � � > encouraged me to take a closer look at Lojban!
>      > � � � > On Apr 5, 5:22 pm, Luke Bergen
>      <[3][4][5]lukeaber...@gmail.com> wrote:
>      > � � � > > Yeah Joel, I think what you're missing at this early stage
>      in your
>      > � � � > learning
>      > � � � > > is that both FA *and* knowing the place structures are
>      extremely
>      > � � � > important
>      > � � � > > if you want to be fluent.
>      > � � � > >
>      > � � � > > I understand your concerns. You agreed that I was
>      representing your
>      > � � � > > argument accurately. What you may have misunderstood was
>      that my
>      > � � � last
>      > � � � > > paragraph about "if one group of people liked the place
>      > � � � structure....
>      > � � � > been
>      > � � � > > dropped out of the language by this group)" was mildly
>      sarcastic.
>      > � � � > >
>      > � � � > > The idea of a group of people using lojban and simply
>      > � � � > forgetting/dropping FA
>      > � � � > > and/or the default place structure of the gismu is
>      completely
>      > � � � absurd.
>      > � � � > It
>      > � � � > > could happen, but it would take (my guess) centuries of
>      shifting for
>      > � � � > that to
>      > � � � > > happen. It's so fundamental to a proper understanding of the
>      > � � � language
>      > � � � > that
>      > � � � > > if anyone dropped FA or began forgetting the place
>      structures, I
>      > � � � would
>      > � � � > argue
>      > � � � > > that it was darn-near a completely different language.
>      > � � � > >
>      > � � � > > I'd put it on par with English switching to a system more
>      like what
>      > � � � > they
>      > � � � > > have in Turkey (as you describe it). Such a thing would be
>      (at best)
>      > � � � > an
>      > � � � > > extremely bastardized version of English. Likewise, lojban
>      without
>      > � � � FA
>      > � � � > would
>      > � � � > > be quite a stretch.
>      > � � � > >
>      > � � � > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:17 AM, Joel T.
>      > � � � <[4][5][6]joelofara...@gmail.com>
>      > � � � > wrote:
>      > � � � > > > That was my point exactly. True fluency means completely
>      > � � � > internalizing
>      > � � � > > > a language so that the words just flow out of your mouth
>      without
>      > � � � > > > thinking. You're completely "out of the book" to use a
>      chess
>      > � � � > > > expression. And a community of truly fluent people would
>      be
>      > � � � > influenced
>      > � � � > > > more by each other than any conscious thought given to the
>      > � � � official
>      > � � � > > > rules of grammar. A true Sapir-Whorf test would demand
>      nothing
>      > � � � less.
>      > � � � > >
>      > � � � > > > The point I'm making about running two systems
>      side-by-side is
>      > � � � that
>      > � � � > in
>      > � � � > > > any community of truly fluent people, either one of them
>      would get
>      > � � � > > > phased out, or they would diverge in meaning, usage,
>      connotation
>      > � � � > etc.
>      > � � � > > > At the very least it would become a way of differentiating
>      between
>      > � � � > > > cliques, which is the thin end of the wedge for
>      dialectisation.
>      > � � � You
>      > � � � > > > just can't have two ways of doing exactly the same thing
>      with only
>      > � � � > > > whim to choose between them. It's great in class, but in
>      the field
>      > � � � > > > it's not tenable. It's not how language works.
>      > � � � > >
>      > � � � > > > On Apr 4, 10:04 pm, Luke Bergen
>      <[5][6][7]lukeaber...@gmail.com>
>      > � � � wrote:
>      > � � � > > > > I think his point was that these dialectic splits could
>      result
>      > � � � in
>      > � � � > two
>      > � � � > > > groups
>      > � � � > > > > of people not being able to understand one another.
>      > � � � > >
>      > � � � > > > > If one group of people liked using the place structure
>      so much
>      > � � � > that they
>      > � � � > > > > just ignored FA what would happen if they saw something
>      like {fi
>      > � � � > lo zdani
>      > � � � > > > cu
>      > � � � > > > > klama fa mi lo zarci} and got completely confused (you
>      know, cuz
>      > � � � > > > generations
>      > � � � > > > > later FA would have basically been dropped out of the
>      language
>      > � � � by
>      > � � � > this
>      > � � � > > > > group).
>      > � � � > >
>      > � � � > > > > On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Michael Turniansky <
>      > � � � > > > [6][7][8]mturnian...@gmail.com>wrote:
>      > � � � > >
>      > � � � > > > > > On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Joel T.
>      > � � � > <[7][8][9]joelofara...@gmail.com>
>      > � � � > > > wrote:
>      > � � � > >
>      > � � � > > > > >> In any case, surely running two systems side-by-side
>      is
>      > � � � asking
>      > � � � > for
>      > � � � > > > > >> dialectisation (is that a word?), where speakers in
>      one area
>      > � � � > get used
>      > � � � > > > > >> to one system while speakers in another prefer the
>      other?
>      > � � � > >
>      > � � � > > > > > It can, and does. But we consider the flexibility to
>      be a
>      > � � � plus.
>      > � � � > > > That
>      > � � � > > > > > way, any person coming from a natural language
>      background of
>      > � � � > say,
>      > � � � > > > Turkish,
>      > � � � > > > > > can from sentences the way that seems most natural to
>      them,
>      > � � � > while
>      > � � � > > > someone
>      > � � � > > > > > coming from an English background can form setnences
>      the most
>      > � � � > natural
>      > � � � > > > way to
>      > � � � > > > > > them. And both will be understood equally well. We
>      had, for
>      > � � � > example,
>      > � � � > > > a
>      > � � � > > > > > while a back, a discussion over which was "better": to
>      use
>      > � � � "cu"
>      > � � � > often,
>      > � � � > > > or to
>      > ? � � > > > > > totally eschew it in favor of sumti that are competely
>      > � � � > terminated so
>      > � � � > > > that
>      > � � � > > > > > there was no need for it (i.e. "lo gerku cu barda" vs.
>      "lo
>      > � � � gerku
>      > � � � > ku
>      > � � � > > > > > barda"). There are vocal proponents on each side, so
>      it
>      > � � � amounts
>      > � � � > to a
>      > � � � > > > > > dialectical split, but.. so what?
>      > � � � > > > > > --gejyspa
>      > � � � > >
>      > � � � > > > > > --
>      > � � � > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed
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>      > � � � > Google
>      > � � � > > > Groups
>      > � � � > > > > > "lojban" group.
>      > � � � > > > > > To post to this group, send email to
>      > � � � [8][9][10]lojban@googlegroups.com.
>      > � � � > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>      > ? � � > > > > > [9][10][11]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>      > � � � > > > > > For more options, visit this group at
>      > � � � > > > >
>      >[10][11][12]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
>      > � � � > >
>      > � � � > > > --
>      > � � � > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to
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>      > � � � > Groups
>      > � � � > > > "lojban" group.
>      > � � � > > > To post to this group, send email to
>      > � � � [11][12][13]lojban@googlegroups.com.
>      > � � � > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>      > � � � > > > [12][13][14]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>      > � � � > > > For more options, visit this group at
>      > � � � > > >[13][14][15]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
>      > � � � >
>      > � � � > --
>      > � � � > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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>      > � � � > Groups "lojban" group.
>      > � � � > To post to this group, send email to
>      [14][15][16]lojban@googlegroups.com.
>      > � � � > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>      > � � � > [15][16][17]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>      > � � � > For more options, visit this group at
>      > � � � > [16][17][18]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
>      > � � � >
>      > � � � > --
>      > � � � > mu'o mi'e .arpis.
>      > � � � >
>      > � � � > --
>      > � � � > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
>      Google
>      > � � � Groups
>      > � � � > "lojban" group.
>      > � � � > To post to this group, send email to
>      [18][19]lojban@googlegroups.com.
>      > � � � > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>      > � � � > [19][20]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>      > � � � > For more options, visit this group at
>      > � � � > [20][21]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
>      > � � � >
>      > � � � > References
>      > � � � >
>      > � � � > Visible links
>      > � � � > 1. mailto:[21][22]joelofarabia@gmail.com
>      > � � � > 2.
>      > � � �
>      [22][23]http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html
>      > � � � > 3. mailto:[23][24]lukeaber...@gmail.com
>      > � � � > 4. mailto:[24][25]joelofara...@gmail.com
>      > � � � > 5. mailto:[25][26]lukeaber...@gmail.com
>      > � � � > 6. mailto:[26][27]mturnian...@gmail.com
>      > � � � > 7. mailto:[27][28]joelofara...@gmail.com
>      > � � � > 8. mailto:[28][29]lojban@googlegroups.com
>      > � � � > 9. mailto:[29][30]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>      > � � � > 10. [30][31]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>      > � � � > 11. mailto:[31][32]lojban@googlegroups.com
>      > � � � > 12. mailto:[32][33]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>      > � � � > 13. [33][34]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>      > � � � > 14. mailto:[34][35]lojban@googlegroups.com
>      > � � � > 15. mailto:[35][36]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>      > � � � > 16. [36][37]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>      > � � � --
>      > � � � .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du
>      >
>      > � � � --
>      > � � � You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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>      > � � � Groups "lojban" group.
>      > � � � To post to this group, send email to
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>      > � � � [38][39]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>      > � � � For more options, visit this group at
>      > � � � [39][40]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
>      >
>      > � � --
>      > � � Alex R
>      >
>      > � � --
>      > � � You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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>      > � � "lojban" group.
>      > � � To post to this group, send email to [41]lojban@googlegroups.com.
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>      > � � [42]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>      > � � For more options, visit this group at
>      > � � [43]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
>      >
>      > References
>      >
>      > � � Visible links
>      > � � 1. mailto:[44]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
>      > � � 2. mailto:[45]joelofarabia@gmail.com
>      > � � 3. [46]http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/
>      > � � 4. mailto:[47]lukeaber...@gmail.com
>      > � � 5. mailto:[48]joelofara...@gmail.com
>      > � � 6. mailto:[49]lukeaber...@gmail.com
>      > � � 7. mailto:[50]mturnian...@gmail.com
>      > � � 8. mailto:[51]joelofara...@gmail.com
>      > � � 9. mailto:[52]lojban@googlegroups.com
>      > � 10. mailto:[53]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>      > � 11. [54]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>      > � 12. mailto:[55]lojban@googlegroups.com
>      > � 13. mailto:[56]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>      > � 14. [57]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>      > � 15. mailto:[58]lojban@googlegroups.com
>      > � 16. mailto:[59]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>      > � 17. [60]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>      > � 18. mailto:[61]lojban@googlegroups.com
>      > � 19. mailto:[62]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>      > � 20. [63]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>      > � 21. mailto:[64]joelofarabia@gmail.com
>      > � 22.
>      [65]http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html
>      > � 23. mailto:[66]lukeaber...@gmail.com
>      > � 24. mailto:[67]joelofara...@gmail.com
>      > � 25. mailto:[68]lukeaber...@gmail.com
>      > � 26. mailto:[69]mturnian...@gmail.com
>      > � 27. mailto:[70]joelofara...@gmail.com
>      > � 28. mailto:[71]lojban@googlegroups.com
>      > � 29. mailto:[72]lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>      > � 30. [73]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>      > � 31. mailto:[74]lojban@googlegroups.com
>      > � 32. mailto:[75]lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>      > � 33. [76]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>      > � 34. mailto:[77]lojban@googlegroups.com
>      > � 35. mailto:[78]lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>      > � 36. [79]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>      > � 37. mailto:[80]lojban@googlegroups.com
>      > � 38. mailto:[81]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>      > � 39. [82]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
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> References
> 
>    Visible links
>    1. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
>    2. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
>    3. mailto:joelofarabia@gmail.com
>    4. http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/
>    5. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
>    6. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
>    7. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
>    8. mailto:mturnian...@gmail.com
>    9. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
>   10. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
>   11. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>   12. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>   13. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
>   14. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>   15. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>   16. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
>   17. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>   18. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>   19. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
>   20. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>   21. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>   22. mailto:joelofarabia@gmail.com
>   23. http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html
>   24. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
>   25. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
>   26. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
>   27. mailto:mturnian...@gmail.com
>   28. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
>   29. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
>   30. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>   31. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>   32. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
>   33. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>   34. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>   35. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
>   36. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>   37. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>   38. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
>   39. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>   40. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>   41. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
>   42. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>   43. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>   44. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
>   45. mailto:joelofarabia@gmail.com
>   46. http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/
>   47. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
>   48. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
>   49. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
>   50. mailto:mturnian...@gmail.com
>   51. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
>   52. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
>   53. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>   54. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>   55. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
>   56. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>   57. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>   58. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
>   59. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>   60. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>   61. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
>   62. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>   63. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>   64. mailto:joelofarabia@gmail.com
>   65. http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html
>   66. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
>   67. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
>   68. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
>   69. mailto:mturnian...@gmail.com
>   70. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
>   71. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
>   72. mailto:lojban%25252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>   73. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>   74. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
>   75. mailto:lojban%25252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>   76. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>   77. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
>   78. mailto:lojban%25252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>   79. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>   80. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
>   81. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>   82. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>   83. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
>   84. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>   85. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en

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