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Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags?
.i ki'e di'u pe do pu sidju mi
(to .i mi nelci <<lo nu cusku lu ki'e do do sidju mi li'u>> ki'u
<<lu do do li'u>> noi mi pu pensi cusku toi)
.i mu'o mi'e .alyn.
On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 03:06:51PM -0400, Luke Bergen wrote:
> .yyy <<lu .i mi djica lo za'i ponse fa do lo rokci li'u>> goi ko'a cu
> simsa <<lu .i mi djica lo za'i do ponse lo rokci li'u> goi ko'e .iku'i
> milxe frica .i ko'a frica ko'e lo ka zoi gy emphasis gy .i pe'i simsa lo
> frica be fa <<lu mi nelci do li'u>> bei <<lu do se nelci mi li'u>>
>
> On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn <[1]rpglover64@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> na xu se jetnu lo du'u <<lu .i mi djica lo za'i ponse fa do lo rokci
> li'u>> <<lu .i mi djica lo za'i do ponse lo rokci li'u>> dunli lo smuni
>
> On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 2:36 PM, .alyn.post.
> <[2]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
>
> .i o'onai ke'a si ko'a
>
> .i mi fanva lu ko xu li'u fu zoi .gy. "is it true that you will make
> it true?" .gy. .a zoi .gy. "Can you make it true?" .gy.
>
> .i mi na jimpe lo nu cusku ko'a va'o lo selma'o be su'o zo fa to zoi
> .fanva. I can't say my example sentence without using FA .fanva. toi
>
> .i ki'edo'u mi ca me lo jimpe poi do xusra
> .i mu'o mi'e .alyn.
>
> On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 01:59:21PM -0400, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote:
> > doi .alan.post.
> >
> > ki'a ru'e .i na jimpe fi zo ko joi zo xu gi'e na jimpe fi lo mukti
> do'e zo
> > ke'a
> >
> > ni'o
> > mi na pu cusku lo du'u va'o ro zo'e na pilno lo selma'o zo fa .i
> ku'i
> > cusku lo du'u va'o lo na'e sarcu ku na pilno
> >
> > (I'm not quite sure what you meant by using "ko" and "xu" together,
> and
> > I'm not sure why you used "ke'a"
> >
> > I didn't say never to use FA; I said that they shouldn't be used
> when not
> > necessary.)
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 12:37 PM, .alyn.post.
> > <[1][3]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
> >
> > doi .arpis.
> >
> > .i ko xu ba cusku ke'a goi lu .i mi djica lo za'i ponse fa do lo
> rokci
> > li'u
> > poi na pilno zo fa .i mi na jimpe lo cusku be ke'a
> > .i mu'o mi'e .alyn.
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 12:01:05PM -0400, .arpis. wrote:
> > > I'm biased, but I find the English structure to be more
> understandable
> > and
> > > natural, and not only because I speak English.
> > >
> > > The selbri comes early in the sentence, allowing the listener to
> start
> > > understanding the relationships between the sumti before the
> sentence
> > is
> > > finished, and FA tags, unlike case endings, have no intrinsic
> meaning
> > > apart from the selbri.
> > >
> > > Also, as I understand it, the FA tags are meant to provide the
> > facility to
> > > reorder sentences when it is convenient, e.g. {mi klama fu lo
> karce},
> > not
> > > to allow arbitrary re-orderings; that's what BAI can be for. A
> > somewhat
> > > contrived example: {kla la .suzyn. xekla lo karce tekla la
> .berlin.
> > sekla
> > > la .paris. co'e}
> > >
> > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 11:36 AM, Joel T.
> > <[1][2][4]joelofarabia@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > OK, fair enough. I hope my comments didn't seem overly dogmatic.
> If
> > > indeed as you say all these elements are indispensable then I am
> > > wrong, and as I said in my original post, I couldn't be happier!
> > >
> > > In that case it would be like me saying that English is flawed
> because
> > > you can remove all the words of French origin and you'd still have
> a
> > > complete language. The premise is correct, but the inertia of
> current
> > > usage means that this will never happen. I just never thought that
> > > such variety could be present in the grammar of a language and not
> > > just the vocabulary.
> > >
> > > I suppose I should have really started by giving an example. In
> > > Chapter 2 of Lojban for Beginners
> > ([2][3][5]http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/
> > > lojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html), if I have
> understood
> > > correctly it basically tells me that if I feel like it I can say
> (and
> > > therefore have to be able to understand):
> > >
> > > la suzyn. klama la paris. la berlin. zo'e le karce (English
> structure)
> > >
> > > and
> > >
> > > la suzyn. fu le karce fi la berlin. fe la paris. klama (Turkish
> > > structure)
> > >
> > > You can imagine how hard it is for native English speakers to get
> used
> > > to Turkish sentence structure, in fact my parents never quite did.
> At
> > > least in Turkish when you change the structure of a sentence you
> do it
> > > for a reason, like emphasis. But Lojban expects me to be able to
> adapt
> > > mid-paragraph for somebody who uses any and all possible sentence
> > > structures on a whim! My brain would flip!
> > >
> > > Everything I know about language tells me that people get used to
> > > expressing themselves according to specific structures. Which is
> why I
> > > arrived at the conclusion that any population of fluent Lojban
> > > speakers would very quickly get used to ordering certain sentences
> in
> > > certain ways instead of constantly mixing up their grammar, which
> > > requires conscious thought.
> > >
> > > Again, please do correct me if I'm wrong, and I get the feeling I
> > > probably am. I would like to thank everybody who has replied to my
> > > original post for taking it in the spirit intended. You have all
> > > encouraged me to take a closer look at Lojban!
> > > On Apr 5, 5:22 pm, Luke Bergen <[3][4][6]lukeaber...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > > Yeah Joel, I think what you're missing at this early stage in
> your
> > > learning
> > > > is that both FA *and* knowing the place structures are extremely
> > > important
> > > > if you want to be fluent.
> > > >
> > > > I understand your concerns. You agreed that I was representing
> your
> > > > argument accurately. What you may have misunderstood was that my
> > last
> > > > paragraph about "if one group of people liked the place
> > structure....
> > > been
> > > > dropped out of the language by this group)" was mildly
> sarcastic.
> > > >
> > > > The idea of a group of people using lojban and simply
> > > forgetting/dropping FA
> > > > and/or the default place structure of the gismu is completely
> > absurd.
> > > It
> > > > could happen, but it would take (my guess) centuries of shifting
> for
> > > that to
> > > > happen. It's so fundamental to a proper understanding of the
> > language
> > > that
> > > > if anyone dropped FA or began forgetting the place structures, I
> > would
> > > argue
> > > > that it was darn-near a completely different language.
> > > >
> > > > I'd put it on par with English switching to a system more like
> what
> > > they
> > > > have in Turkey (as you describe it). Such a thing would be (at
> best)
> > > an
> > > > extremely bastardized version of English. Likewise, lojban
> without
> > FA
> > > would
> > > > be quite a stretch.
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:17 AM, Joel T.
> > <[4][5][7]joelofara...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > That was my point exactly. True fluency means completely
> > > internalizing
> > > > > a language so that the words just flow out of your mouth
> without
> > > > > thinking. You're completely "out of the book" to use a chess
> > > > > expression. And a community of truly fluent people would be
> > > influenced
> > > > > more by each other than any conscious thought given to the
> > official
> > > > > rules of grammar. A true Sapir-Whorf test would demand nothing
> > less.
> > > >
> > > > > The point I'm making about running two systems side-by-side is
> > that
> > > in
> > > > > any community of truly fluent people, either one of them would
> get
> > > > > phased out, or they would diverge in meaning, usage,
> connotation
> > > etc.
> > > > > At the very least it would become a way of differentiating
> between
> > > > > cliques, which is the thin end of the wedge for
> dialectisation.
> > You
> > > > > just can't have two ways of doing exactly the same thing with
> only
> > > > > whim to choose between them. It's great in class, but in the
> field
> > > > > it's not tenable. It's not how language works.
> > > >
> > > > > On Apr 4, 10:04 pm, Luke Bergen
> <[5][6][8]lukeaber...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > I think his point was that these dialectic splits could
> result
> > in
> > > two
> > > > > groups
> > > > > > of people not being able to understand one another.
> > > >
> > > > > > If one group of people liked using the place structure so
> much
> > > that they
> > > > > > just ignored FA what would happen if they saw something like
> {fi
> > > lo zdani
> > > > > cu
> > > > > > klama fa mi lo zarci} and got completely confused (you know,
> cuz
> > > > > generations
> > > > > > later FA would have basically been dropped out of the
> language
> > by
> > > this
> > > > > > group).
> > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Michael Turniansky <
> > > > > [6][7][9]mturnian...@gmail.com>wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > > On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Joel T.
> > > <[7][8][10]joelofara...@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > >> In any case, surely running two systems side-by-side is
> > asking
> > > for
> > > > > > >> dialectisation (is that a word?), where speakers in one
> area
> > > get used
> > > > > > >> to one system while speakers in another prefer the other?
> > > >
> > > > > > > It can, and does. But we consider the flexibility to be a
> > plus.
> > > > > That
> > > > > > > way, any person coming from a natural language background
> of
> > > say,
> > > > > Turkish,
> > > > > > > can from sentences the way that seems most natural to
> them,
> > > while
> > > > > someone
> > > > > > > coming from an English background can form setnences the
> most
> > > natural
> > > > > way to
> > > > > > > them. And both will be understood equally well. We had,
> for
> > > example,
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > while a back, a discussion over which was "better": to use
> > "cu"
> > > often,
> > > > > or to
> > > > > > > totally eschew it in favor of sumti that are competely
> > > terminated so
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > there was no need for it (i.e. "lo gerku cu barda" vs. "lo
> > gerku
> > > ku
> > > > > > > barda"). There are vocal proponents on each side, so it
> > amounts
> > > to a
> > > > > > > dialectical split, but.. so what?
> > > > > > > --gejyspa
> > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to
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> > >
> > > --
> > > mu'o mi'e .arpis.
> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> > > To post to this group, send email to
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> > > For more options, visit this group at
> > > [20][22]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
> > >
> > > References
> > >
> > > Visible links
> > > 1. mailto:[21][23]joelofarabia@gmail.com
> > > 2.
> >
> [22][24]http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html
> > > 3. mailto:[23][25]lukeaber...@gmail.com
> > > 4. mailto:[24][26]joelofara...@gmail.com
> > > 5. mailto:[25][27]lukeaber...@gmail.com
> > > 6. mailto:[26][28]mturnian...@gmail.com
> > > 7. mailto:[27][29]joelofara...@gmail.com
> > > 8. mailto:[28][30]lojban@googlegroups.com
> > > 9. mailto:[29][31]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > > 10. [30][32]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> > > 11. mailto:[31][33]lojban@googlegroups.com
> > > 12. mailto:[32][34]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > > 13. [33][35]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> > > 14. mailto:[34][36]lojban@googlegroups.com
> > > 15. mailto:[35][37]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > > 16. [36][38]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> > --
> > .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> > To post to this group, send email to
> [37][39]lojban@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > [38][40]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> > [39][41]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
> >
> > --
> > Alex R
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups
> > "lojban" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to [42]lojban@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > [43]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> > [44]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
> >
> > References
> >
> > Visible links
> > 1. mailto:[45]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
> > 2. mailto:[46]joelofarabia@gmail.com
> > 3. [47]http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/
> > 4. mailto:[48]lukeaber...@gmail.com
> > 5. mailto:[49]joelofara...@gmail.com
> > 6. mailto:[50]lukeaber...@gmail.com
> > 7. mailto:[51]mturnian...@gmail.com
> > 8. mailto:[52]joelofara...@gmail.com
> > 9. mailto:[53]lojban@googlegroups.com
> > 10. mailto:[54]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > 11. [55]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> > 12. mailto:[56]lojban@googlegroups.com
> > 13. mailto:[57]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > 14. [58]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> > 15. mailto:[59]lojban@googlegroups.com
> > 16. mailto:[60]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > 17. [61]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> > 18. mailto:[62]lojban@googlegroups.com
> > 19. mailto:[63]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > 20. [64]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> > 21. mailto:[65]joelofarabia@gmail.com
> > 22.
> [66]http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html
> > 23. mailto:[67]lukeaber...@gmail.com
> > 24. mailto:[68]joelofara...@gmail.com
> > 25. mailto:[69]lukeaber...@gmail.com
> > 26. mailto:[70]mturnian...@gmail.com
> > 27. mailto:[71]joelofara...@gmail.com
> > 28. mailto:[72]lojban@googlegroups.com
> > 29. mailto:[73]lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > 30. [74]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> > 31. mailto:[75]lojban@googlegroups.com
> > 32. mailto:[76]lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > 33. [77]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> > 34. mailto:[78]lojban@googlegroups.com
> > 35. mailto:[79]lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > 36. [80]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> > 37. mailto:[81]lojban@googlegroups.com
> > 38. mailto:[82]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> > 39. [83]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> --
> .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du
>
> --
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>
> --
> Alex R
>
> --
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> --
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>
> References
>
> Visible links
> 1. mailto:rpglover64@gmail.com
> 2. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
> 3. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
> 4. mailto:joelofarabia@gmail.com
> 5. http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/
> 6. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
> 7. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
> 8. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
> 9. mailto:mturnian...@gmail.com
> 10. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
> 11. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 12. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 13. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 14. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 15. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 16. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 17. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 18. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 19. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 20. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 21. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 22. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 23. mailto:joelofarabia@gmail.com
> 24. http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html
> 25. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
> 26. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
> 27. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
> 28. mailto:mturnian...@gmail.com
> 29. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
> 30. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 31. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 32. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 33. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 34. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 35. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 36. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 37. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 38. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 39. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 40. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 41. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 42. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 43. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 44. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 45. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
> 46. mailto:joelofarabia@gmail.com
> 47. http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/
> 48. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
> 49. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
> 50. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
> 51. mailto:mturnian...@gmail.com
> 52. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
> 53. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 54. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 55. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 56. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 57. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 58. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 59. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 60. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 61. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 62. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 63. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 64. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 65. mailto:joelofarabia@gmail.com
> 66. http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html
> 67. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
> 68. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
> 69. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
> 70. mailto:mturnian...@gmail.com
> 71. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
> 72. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
> 73. mailto:lojban%25252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> 74. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 75. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
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> 80. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 81. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
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> 83. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
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> 89. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
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- References:
- Re: [lojban] I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags?
- From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
- [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags?
- From: "Joel T." <joelofarabia@gmail.com>
- Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags?
- From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
- [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags?
- From: "Joel T." <joelofarabia@gmail.com>
- Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags?
- From: ".arpis." <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com>
- Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags?
- From: ".alyn.post." <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org>
- Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags?
- From: Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com>
- Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags?
- From: ".alyn.post." <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org>
- Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags?
- From: Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com>
- Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags?
- From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>