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Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags?



.i ki'e di'u pe do pu sidju mi

(to .i mi nelci <<lo nu cusku lu ki'e do do sidju mi li'u>> ki'u
<<lu do do li'u>> noi mi pu pensi cusku toi)

.i mu'o mi'e .alyn.

On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 03:06:51PM -0400, Luke Bergen wrote:
>    .yyy <<lu .i mi djica lo za'i ponse fa do lo rokci li'u>> goi ko'a cu
>    simsa <<lu .i mi djica lo za'i do ponse lo rokci li'u> goi ko'e .iku'i
>    milxe frica .i ko'a frica ko'e lo ka zoi gy emphasis gy .i pe'i simsa lo
>    frica be fa <<lu mi nelci do li'u>> bei <<lu do se nelci mi li'u>>
> 
>    On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn <[1]rpglover64@gmail.com>
>    wrote:
> 
>      na xu se jetnu lo du'u <<lu .i mi djica lo za'i ponse fa do lo rokci
>      li'u>> <<lu .i mi djica lo za'i do ponse lo rokci li'u>> dunli lo smuni
> 
>      On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 2:36 PM, .alyn.post.
>      <[2]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
> 
>        .i o'onai ke'a si ko'a
> 
>        .i mi fanva lu ko xu li'u fu zoi .gy. "is it true that you will make
>        it true?" .gy. .a zoi .gy. "Can you make it true?" .gy.
> 
>        .i mi na jimpe lo nu cusku ko'a va'o lo selma'o be su'o zo fa to zoi
>        .fanva. I can't say my example sentence without using FA .fanva. toi
> 
>        .i ki'edo'u mi ca me lo jimpe poi do xusra
>        .i mu'o mi'e .alyn.
> 
>        On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 01:59:21PM -0400, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote:
>        > doi .alan.post.
>        >
>        > ki'a ru'e .i na jimpe fi zo ko joi zo xu gi'e na jimpe fi lo mukti
>        do'e zo
>        > ke'a
>        >
>        > ni'o
>        > mi na pu cusku lo du'u va'o ro zo'e na pilno lo selma'o zo fa .i
>        ku'i
>        > cusku lo du'u va'o lo na'e sarcu ku na pilno
>        >
>        > (I'm not quite sure what you meant by using "ko" and "xu" together,
>        and
>        > I'm not sure why you used "ke'a"
>        >
>        > I didn't say never to use FA; I said that they shouldn't be used
>        when not
>        > necessary.)
>        >
>        > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 12:37 PM, .alyn.post.
>        > <[1][3]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
>        >
>        > doi .arpis.
>        >
>        > .i ko xu ba cusku ke'a goi lu .i mi djica lo za'i ponse fa do lo
>        rokci
>        > li'u
>        > poi na pilno zo fa .i mi na jimpe lo cusku be ke'a
>        > .i mu'o mi'e .alyn.
>        >
>        > On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 12:01:05PM -0400, .arpis. wrote:
>        > > I'm biased, but I find the English structure to be more
>        understandable
>        > and
>        > > natural, and not only because I speak English.
>        > >
>        > > The selbri comes early in the sentence, allowing the listener to
>        start
>        > > understanding the relationships between the sumti before the
>        sentence
>        > is
>        > > finished, and FA tags, unlike case endings, have no intrinsic
>        meaning
>        > > apart from the selbri.
>        > >
>        > > Also, as I understand it, the FA tags are meant to provide the
>        > facility to
>        > > reorder sentences when it is convenient, e.g. {mi klama fu lo
>        karce},
>        > not
>        > > to allow arbitrary re-orderings; that's what BAI can be for. A
>        > somewhat
>        > > contrived example: {kla la .suzyn. xekla lo karce tekla la
>        .berlin.
>        > sekla
>        > > la .paris. co'e}
>        > >
>        > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 11:36 AM, Joel T.
>        > <[1][2][4]joelofarabia@gmail.com>
>        > > wrote:
>        > >
>        > > OK, fair enough. I hope my comments didn't seem overly dogmatic.
>        If
>        > > indeed as you say all these elements are indispensable then I am
>        > > wrong, and as I said in my original post, I couldn't be happier!
>        > >
>        > > In that case it would be like me saying that English is flawed
>        because
>        > > you can remove all the words of French origin and you'd still have
>        a
>        > > complete language. The premise is correct, but the inertia of
>        current
>        > > usage means that this will never happen. I just never thought that
>        > > such variety could be present in the grammar of a language and not
>        > > just the vocabulary.
>        > >
>        > > I suppose I should have really started by giving an example. In
>        > > Chapter 2 of Lojban for Beginners
>        > ([2][3][5]http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/
>        > > lojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html), if I have
>        understood
>        > > correctly it basically tells me that if I feel like it I can say
>        (and
>        > > therefore have to be able to understand):
>        > >
>        > > la suzyn. klama la paris. la berlin. zo'e le karce (English
>        structure)
>        > >
>        > > and
>        > >
>        > > la suzyn. fu le karce fi la berlin. fe la paris. klama (Turkish
>        > > structure)
>        > >
>        > > You can imagine how hard it is for native English speakers to get
>        used
>        > > to Turkish sentence structure, in fact my parents never quite did.
>        At
>        > > least in Turkish when you change the structure of a sentence you
>        do it
>        > > for a reason, like emphasis. But Lojban expects me to be able to
>        adapt
>        > > mid-paragraph for somebody who uses any and all possible sentence
>        > > structures on a whim! My brain would flip!
>        > >
>        > > Everything I know about language tells me that people get used to
>        > > expressing themselves according to specific structures. Which is
>        why I
>        > > arrived at the conclusion that any population of fluent Lojban
>        > > speakers would very quickly get used to ordering certain sentences
>        in
>        > > certain ways instead of constantly mixing up their grammar, which
>        > > requires conscious thought.
>        > >
>        > > Again, please do correct me if I'm wrong, and I get the feeling I
>        > > probably am. I would like to thank everybody who has replied to my
>        > > original post for taking it in the spirit intended. You have all
>        > > encouraged me to take a closer look at Lojban!
>        > > On Apr 5, 5:22 pm, Luke Bergen <[3][4][6]lukeaber...@gmail.com>
>        wrote:
>        > > > Yeah Joel, I think what you're missing at this early stage in
>        your
>        > > learning
>        > > > is that both FA *and* knowing the place structures are extremely
>        > > important
>        > > > if you want to be fluent.
>        > > >
>        > > > I understand your concerns. You agreed that I was representing
>        your
>        > > > argument accurately. What you may have misunderstood was that my
>        > last
>        > > > paragraph about "if one group of people liked the place
>        > structure....
>        > > been
>        > > > dropped out of the language by this group)" was mildly
>        sarcastic.
>        > > >
>        > > > The idea of a group of people using lojban and simply
>        > > forgetting/dropping FA
>        > > > and/or the default place structure of the gismu is completely
>        > absurd.
>        > > It
>        > > > could happen, but it would take (my guess) centuries of shifting
>        for
>        > > that to
>        > > > happen. It's so fundamental to a proper understanding of the
>        > language
>        > > that
>        > > > if anyone dropped FA or began forgetting the place structures, I
>        > would
>        > > argue
>        > > > that it was darn-near a completely different language.
>        > > >
>        > > > I'd put it on par with English switching to a system more like
>        what
>        > > they
>        > > > have in Turkey (as you describe it). Such a thing would be (at
>        best)
>        > > an
>        > > > extremely bastardized version of English. Likewise, lojban
>        without
>        > FA
>        > > would
>        > > > be quite a stretch.
>        > > >
>        > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:17 AM, Joel T.
>        > <[4][5][7]joelofara...@gmail.com>
>        > > wrote:
>        > > > > That was my point exactly. True fluency means completely
>        > > internalizing
>        > > > > a language so that the words just flow out of your mouth
>        without
>        > > > > thinking. You're completely "out of the book" to use a chess
>        > > > > expression. And a community of truly fluent people would be
>        > > influenced
>        > > > > more by each other than any conscious thought given to the
>        > official
>        > > > > rules of grammar. A true Sapir-Whorf test would demand nothing
>        > less.
>        > > >
>        > > > > The point I'm making about running two systems side-by-side is
>        > that
>        > > in
>        > > > > any community of truly fluent people, either one of them would
>        get
>        > > > > phased out, or they would diverge in meaning, usage,
>        connotation
>        > > etc.
>        > > > > At the very least it would become a way of differentiating
>        between
>        > > > > cliques, which is the thin end of the wedge for
>        dialectisation.
>        > You
>        > > > > just can't have two ways of doing exactly the same thing with
>        only
>        > > > > whim to choose between them. It's great in class, but in the
>        field
>        > > > > it's not tenable. It's not how language works.
>        > > >
>        > > > > On Apr 4, 10:04 pm, Luke Bergen
>        <[5][6][8]lukeaber...@gmail.com>
>        > wrote:
>        > > > > > I think his point was that these dialectic splits could
>        result
>        > in
>        > > two
>        > > > > groups
>        > > > > > of people not being able to understand one another.
>        > > >
>        > > > > > If one group of people liked using the place structure so
>        much
>        > > that they
>        > > > > > just ignored FA what would happen if they saw something like
>        {fi
>        > > lo zdani
>        > > > > cu
>        > > > > > klama fa mi lo zarci} and got completely confused (you know,
>        cuz
>        > > > > generations
>        > > > > > later FA would have basically been dropped out of the
>        language
>        > by
>        > > this
>        > > > > > group).
>        > > >
>        > > > > > On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Michael Turniansky <
>        > > > > [6][7][9]mturnian...@gmail.com>wrote:
>        > > >
>        > > > > > > On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Joel T.
>        > > <[7][8][10]joelofara...@gmail.com>
>        > > > > wrote:
>        > > >
>        > > > > > >> In any case, surely running two systems side-by-side is
>        > asking
>        > > for
>        > > > > > >> dialectisation (is that a word?), where speakers in one
>        area
>        > > get used
>        > > > > > >> to one system while speakers in another prefer the other?
>        > > >
>        > > > > > > It can, and does. But we consider the flexibility to be a
>        > plus.
>        > > > > That
>        > > > > > > way, any person coming from a natural language background
>        of
>        > > say,
>        > > > > Turkish,
>        > > > > > > can from sentences the way that seems most natural to
>        them,
>        > > while
>        > > > > someone
>        > > > > > > coming from an English background can form setnences the
>        most
>        > > natural
>        > > > > way to
>        > > > > > > them. And both will be understood equally well. We had,
>        for
>        > > example,
>        > > > > a
>        > > > > > > while a back, a discussion over which was "better": to use
>        > "cu"
>        > > often,
>        > > > > or to
>        > > > > > > totally eschew it in favor of sumti that are competely
>        > > terminated so
>        > > > > that
>        > > > > > > there was no need for it (i.e. "lo gerku cu barda" vs. "lo
>        > gerku
>        > > ku
>        > > > > > > barda"). There are vocal proponents on each side, so it
>        > amounts
>        > > to a
>        > > > > > > dialectical split, but.. so what?
>        > > > > > > --gejyspa
>        > > >
>        > > > > > > --
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>        > >
>        > > --
>        > > mu'o mi'e .arpis.
>        > >
>        > > --
>        > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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>        > > To post to this group, send email to
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>        > > [20][22]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
>        > >
>        > > References
>        > >
>        > > Visible links
>        > > 1. mailto:[21][23]joelofarabia@gmail.com
>        > > 2.
>        >
>        [22][24]http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html
>        > > 3. mailto:[23][25]lukeaber...@gmail.com
>        > > 4. mailto:[24][26]joelofara...@gmail.com
>        > > 5. mailto:[25][27]lukeaber...@gmail.com
>        > > 6. mailto:[26][28]mturnian...@gmail.com
>        > > 7. mailto:[27][29]joelofara...@gmail.com
>        > > 8. mailto:[28][30]lojban@googlegroups.com
>        > > 9. mailto:[29][31]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>        > > 10. [30][32]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>        > > 11. mailto:[31][33]lojban@googlegroups.com
>        > > 12. mailto:[32][34]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>        > > 13. [33][35]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>        > > 14. mailto:[34][36]lojban@googlegroups.com
>        > > 15. mailto:[35][37]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>        > > 16. [36][38]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>        > --
>        > .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du
>        >
>        > --
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>        >
>        > --
>        > Alex R
>        >
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>        >
>        > References
>        >
>        > Visible links
>        > 1. mailto:[45]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
>        > 2. mailto:[46]joelofarabia@gmail.com
>        > 3. [47]http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/
>        > 4. mailto:[48]lukeaber...@gmail.com
>        > 5. mailto:[49]joelofara...@gmail.com
>        > 6. mailto:[50]lukeaber...@gmail.com
>        > 7. mailto:[51]mturnian...@gmail.com
>        > 8. mailto:[52]joelofara...@gmail.com
>        > 9. mailto:[53]lojban@googlegroups.com
>        > 10. mailto:[54]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>        > 11. [55]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>        > 12. mailto:[56]lojban@googlegroups.com
>        > 13. mailto:[57]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>        > 14. [58]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
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>        > 16. mailto:[60]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
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>        > 19. mailto:[63]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>        > 20. [64]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>        > 21. mailto:[65]joelofarabia@gmail.com
>        > 22.
>        [66]http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html
>        > 23. mailto:[67]lukeaber...@gmail.com
>        > 24. mailto:[68]joelofara...@gmail.com
>        > 25. mailto:[69]lukeaber...@gmail.com
>        > 26. mailto:[70]mturnian...@gmail.com
>        > 27. mailto:[71]joelofara...@gmail.com
>        > 28. mailto:[72]lojban@googlegroups.com
>        > 29. mailto:[73]lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>        > 30. [74]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>        > 31. mailto:[75]lojban@googlegroups.com
>        > 32. mailto:[76]lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>        > 33. [77]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>        > 34. mailto:[78]lojban@googlegroups.com
>        > 35. mailto:[79]lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>        > 36. [80]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>        > 37. mailto:[81]lojban@googlegroups.com
>        > 38. mailto:[82]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>        > 39. [83]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>        --
>        .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du
> 
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>      --
>      Alex R
> 
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> References
> 
>    Visible links
>    1. mailto:rpglover64@gmail.com
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>    4. mailto:joelofarabia@gmail.com
>    5. http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/
>    6. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
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>   23. mailto:joelofarabia@gmail.com
>   24. http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html
>   25. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
>   26. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
>   27. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
>   28. mailto:mturnian...@gmail.com
>   29. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
>   30. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
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>   45. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org
>   46. mailto:joelofarabia@gmail.com
>   47. http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/
>   48. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
>   49. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
>   50. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
>   51. mailto:mturnian...@gmail.com
>   52. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
>   53. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
>   54. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>   55. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>   56. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
>   57. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>   58. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>   59. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
>   60. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>   61. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>   62. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
>   63. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>   64. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>   65. mailto:joelofarabia@gmail.com
>   66. http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html
>   67. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
>   68. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
>   69. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com
>   70. mailto:mturnian...@gmail.com
>   71. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com
>   72. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
>   73. mailto:lojban%25252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>   74. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>   75. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
>   76. mailto:lojban%25252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>   77. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>   78. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
>   79. mailto:lojban%25252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>   80. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>   81. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
>   82. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>   83. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>   84. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
>   85. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>   86. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
>   87. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com
>   88. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>   89. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en

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