[lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags?

["Joel T." <joelofarabia@gmail.com>]

Super. Thanks!

On Apr 5, 9:29 pm, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglove...@gmail.com> wrote:
> SE is the name used to refer to the selma'o (grammatical class/family) which
> includes the words {se}, {te}, {ve}, and {xe}. You can read about it herehttp://dag.github.com/cll/9/4/
>
> BAI is the name for the selma'o that includes many words that add meaning to
> bridi, much like prepositions in English, but more precise and more varied.
> You can read about it herehttp://dag.github.com/cll/9/6/and see a complete
> list herehttp://dag.github.com/cll/9/17/
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 2:16 PM, Joel T. <joelofara...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > OK I'm not having a whole lot of joy with Google, so what are BAI and
> > SE?
>
> > On Apr 5, 8:41 pm, Luke Bergen <lukeaber...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > That makes more sense.  I would think that communication would be very
> > > difficult indeed if Turkish did {mi do lo zdani la mil.rod lo karce cu
> > > klama}  (in english: I to you from the house along mill road in the car
> > do
> > > come) (only english adds even more information than the lojban because of
> > > the necessary "to", "from", "along", etc...).  Using BAI like tags would
> > at
> > > least make the previous sentence a bit easier to keep up with.
>
> > > Joel, jumping around like that with FA (like in the L4B example) is
> > > certainly not the norm.  It's just an existing technique that by virtue
> > of
> > > other constructs in the language, will always be possible to do.  It has
> > a
> > > similar flavor to me as an english statement like "I to you do come" or
> > "I
> > > do thee wed".  It sounds kind of funny and some people might have some
> > > trouble grasping what's being said... but it's still valid english and
> > most
> > > people probably will get it... it just kind of sounds funny.
>
> > > For purposes of emphasis, we usually use SE to swap places.
>
> > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeo...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > FA merely marks which place in the defined place structure if being
> > filled
> > > > by the following sumti. {fa} always marks the x1 of the bridi. You have
> > to
> > > > know the place structure of the selbri in order to know what relation
> > is
> > > > bring applied to the sumti following FA. I don't know Turkish, but I
> > believe
> > > > that language's tags are more like our BAI.
>
> > > > to pu benji di'u fo lo mi me la.android. fonxa toi
> > > > mu'o mi'e.aionys.
>
> > > > On Apr 5, 2011 9:36 AM, "Joel T." <joelofara...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > OK, fair enough. I hope my comments didn't seem overly dogmatic. If
> > > > indeed as you say all these elements are indispensable then I am
> > > > wrong, and as I said in my original post, I couldn't be happier!
>
> > > > In that case it would be like me saying that English is flawed because
> > > > you can remove all the words of French origin and you'd still have a
> > > > complete language. The premise is correct, but the inertia of current
> > > > usage means that this will never happen. I just never thought that
> > > > such variety could be present in the grammar of a language and not
> > > > just the vocabulary.
>
> > > > I suppose I should have really started by giving an example. In
> > > > Chapter 2 of Lojban for Beginners (http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/
> > > > lojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html<
> >http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changepl..
> > .>),
> > > > if I have understood
> > > > correctly it basically tells me that if I feel like it I can say (and
> > > > therefore have to be able to understand):
>
> > > > la suzyn. klama la paris. la berlin. zo'e le karce (English structure)
>
> > > > and
>
> > > > la suzyn. fu le karce fi la berlin. fe la paris. klama (Turkish
> > > > structure)
>
> > > > You can imagine how hard it is for native English speakers to get used
> > > > to Turkish sentence structure, in fact my parents never quite did. At
> > > > least in Turkish when you change the structure of a sentence you do it
> > > > for a reason, like emphasis. But Lojban expects me to be able to adapt
> > > > mid-paragraph for somebody who uses any and all possible sentence
> > > > structures on a whim! My brain would flip!
>
> > > > Everything I know about language tells me that people get used to
> > > > expressing themselves according to specific structures. Which is why I
> > > > arrived at the conclusion that any population of fluent Lojban
> > > > speakers would very quickly get used to ordering certain sentences in
> > > > certain ways instead of constantly mixing up their grammar, which
> > > > requires conscious thought.
>
> > > > Again, please do correct me if I'm wrong, and I get the feeling I
> > > > probably am. I would like to thank everybody who has replied to my
> > > > original post for taking it in the spirit intended. You have all
> > > > encouraged me to take a closer look at Lojban!
>
> > > > On Apr 5, 5:22 pm, Luke Bergen <lukeaber...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Yeah Joel, I think what you're miss...
>
> > > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:17 AM, Joel T. <joelofara...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > >  > > That was my point exac...
>
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>           Alex R

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