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Re: [lojban] modals inside description sumti (za'e "internal-modals") question



coi
For starters, these are advanced topics (ish) which makes me suspect you're getting a very good grasp of the grammar. Congratulations :) Come talk with us in IRC sometime !

On 17 August 2012 17:21, sunderland <gatewaycat@gmail.com> wrote:
Forgive me if this question is super obvious or misguided:

FAhA as a tense goes into {lo} as part of the selbri (I think): {lo zu'a zarci}, "store to the left". But what about FAhA as a modal, i.e., "store to the left of the school"?

FAhA aren't required to appear in descriptions. They can appear before any selbri.
Additionally, FAhA are members of the meta-selma'o called TAG, which gives them the following properties:
{fa'a broda} == {fa'a ku broda} == {broda fa'a ku} == {broda fa'a zo'e}
{ko'a jai fa'a broda} == {broda fa'a ko'a}
There are some other properties, but they aren't important.

e.g. {mi zu'a tavla} -> "I'm talking to the left of [something]" where [something] represents that annoying gloss of {zo'e}.


- You could use a relative clause with the full gismu (but not all FAhA get a gismu).
{lo zarci poi zunle lo ckule}


You're right, there are many FAhA that have gismu, but you'll notice that they're "reversed":
zu'a ~= fi'o *se* zunle

This also holds for PU:
pu ~= fi'o *se* purci
 
- You could do a couple of awful conversions (can {jai} can even take FAhA instead of BAI?).
{lo sejaizu'ase zarci be lo ckule}


{jai} can take any TAG, and there were even ideas about FA becoming TAG, making stuff like {jai fi} grammatical, albeit unuseful :P
 
==> Is there a straightforward way to put a modal phrase into a description sumti? (How do you do za'e "internal-modals"?)



The answer is yes. It's called TAG for a reason, and that's because you can use TAG to "tag" a sumti, making it fill in the "value" of the TAG.
e.g. {mi citka zu'a lo ckule}, {mi citka ba lo nu tadni}, {mi citka ga'a do}
You could almost think of these TAGs as FA, because they precede the sumti. However, tagged sumti are invisible to the regular place structure of the selbri.
i.e. {.i mi mu'i lo nu djica cu citka lo plise} == {.i mi citka mu'i lo nu djica kei lo plise} == {.i mi citka lo plise mu'i lo nu djica}
It's "better" style to put big event tags at the end of the sentence to elide terminators.
 
Somewhat relatedly, I was also wondering, are the following grammatical?
1.  {zu'a lo ckule [ku] cu zarci} 
2.  {lo mu'i tavla}

In other words, can {cu} separate the selbri from a modal phrase (something other than leading sumti)? 1. is technically an observative (I think) after all. S 
econdly, is BAI considered part of the selbri when it's used like a tense?

You can use {cu} to terminate pretty much anything, as long as a selbri follows.

Hope these explanations helped.

mu'o mi'e la tsani 

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