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Am 16.09.2012 05:56, schrieb Michael
Turniansky:
If you write down "iu isai" then that becomes {iu .i sai}.
If you write it down without spaces, which is the more
interesting case and more closely resembles the actual
speechstream, then you have to make sure the automatic
initial denpa bu that people are using does what you want it
to do. {iuisai} would become {.i ui sai} if you allow denpa
bu to be elided. If not, it would be ungrammatical (because
after iu, the next i is not a lojban word and it fails to
parse).
What are you talking about? The next i IS a lojbanic
word, and parses fine (If you are asserting that a sentence
may not be simply an attitudinal, that's not true. Or
perhaps you are asserting that sai may not stand alone,
which is also untrue).
No, I don't assert either of those things. Please re-read what I
said.
And I never suggested he couldn't elide the denpa bu. I
explicitly said:
.i
uisai" or ".i.uisai"
You wrote:
So how do you distinguish between "iu
isai..." and "i ui sai..." if all the person put down (as here)
was "iuisai..."?
And I answered that question, once with and once without denpa bu
elision being allowed. If denpa bu cannot be elided, then "iuisai"
must become *{iu i sai}, which is not grammatical, because just "i"
[i] is not a Lojban word. {.i} [ʔi] would be the Lojban word, but
"i" is not. A Lojban word cannot begin with a vowel.
I don't use usually use denpa bu except before "i" or
in educational settings.
Do you use it or not? You can do what you want, I just recommend
always including all necessary denpa bu because it causes less
confusion about the rules and is a better representation of what is
going on morphologically.
(And let's not forget that plenty of combinations like
"iau" are valid in names and fu'ivla and are different
than "i au and ia u" The pauses need to be present to
distinguish, or there has to be an unambiguous rule of
decomposition, which I don't believe there can be, but I
will wait further commenting upon my reading of what
youve already written onthe topic.
There is indeed such a rule of decomposition and only
because it exists can I in good conscience preach this. You
just need to be aware that the semi-vowels are not vowels,
they are [w] and [j] in IPA respectively. If you consider
speechstreams, then those are distinct from the actual
Lojban vowels (V). "iua" is only possible in cmevla and
zi'evla. A cmavo can't have three VVV in a row, so the cmavo
clusters always decompose unambiguously. If I didn't answer
all your questions, please feel free to through more
questions or tests at me.
Yes, I have no misunderstanding about [w] and [j].
But they are a natural artifact of the pronouncing of two
vowels close together. For example, if you (as some do, but
I don't) say that the name le jegvo cevni is la'o jegvo iaue
jegvo, you can pronounce it as a single vocalic "flow" from
one to the other, and they naturally cause a [w] and [j]
(and an [aʊ̯]) to
appear (Go ahead, I'll wait (*hums*))
I would say for example:
la. iaues. cu cevni lo jegvo
[laʔ 'ja.wɛsʔ ʃu 'ʃɛvni lo ʒɛgvo]
iaues can only be ['ja.wɛs] in Lojban, otherwise you'd end up with a
syllable without onset */es/ and Lojban doesn't like that. That's
why it inserts denpa bu (which is a consonant) in otherwise empty
onsets, just like some natlangs do (e.g. German).
[w] and [j] are not just natural artifacts, as you say. They have
distinct properties in the morphology in that they don't act as
vowels at all. This is not just a case of different ways of
realizing a set of phonemes.
That's all the morphologic rule means, and why it's
necessary to separate out the vowel pairs that should NOT be
pronounced as diphthongs or semivowels+vowel. Nonetheless,
I will agree that in speech, it's not necessary to pause
between the words, because the pronunciation as a semivowel
and not a vowel will naturally cause the break, but in print
(which is what we were addressing here, in case you've
forgotten), it IS, because otherwise the decomposition is
ambiguous.
The idea is that speech and writing are the same thing, that's one
of Lojban's selling points, and, to a large degree, it works even
without modifications to the script. The decomposition is not
ambiguous. The string of cmavo gets decomposed from left to right,
and if you reach a word that can't exist (like "i"), you know it's
not a grammatical text. I think I have shown how the decomposition
works in the string in question.
mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
--
pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo
doị mèlbi mlenì'u
.i do càtlu ki'u
ma fe la xàmpre ŭu
.i do tìnsa càrmi
gi'e sìrji se tàrmi
.i taị bo pu cìtka lo gràna ku
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