In order to understand what was going on in 1996 here are some examples from http://www.loglan.org/Articles/mia-subjunctives.html (most lojbanists can't read loglandic texts).I replaced loglandic {mia} with {mi'ai} and converted all loglandic examples to lojban.I should note that {mia} is basically {va'o} so {mi'ai} is an adhoc cmavo here.I didn't translate sio/dau/biu words and sirto. Five Other "Auxiliary Verbs" might have other translations to lojban so i marked them with "?". Anyway their english translation is the reference for searching for lojbanic analogs.The Basic Mi'ai Plan
1) Mi gleki mi'ai lonu mi nolraitru
I am happy in-an-imaginary-world-in-which I am king.
I would/could be happy in a world where I were king.
I would/could be happy if I were king.
2) Mi gleki mi'ai da.
I am-happy given-some-unspecified cause x (in some unmentioned imaginary world y).
I could/would be happy.
Effect Likelihood
1) ko'a sio mabru.
X must be/certainly is a mammal.
2) ko'a dau mabru.
X should be/probably is a mammal.
3) ko'a biu mabru.
X might be/possibly is a mammal.
4) lo nu ko'a mabru cu sirto(=fatci?)/lakne/cumki ti da.
The-state-of X's being-a-mammal is certain/-probable/possible given-these-conditions (those presumably present in the world of speech) and-some-unspecified-knowledge-system-x.
5) ju'o/la'a/a'o da mamla.
Certainly/Probably/Perhaps X is a mammal.
World-Likelihood
1) mi gleki mi'ai lonu mi nolraitru.
I would be happy if I were king.How do we add the English mumble ...but I'll never be one? Actually, quite simply. By using our alphabetic anaphora, we can co-designate lonu mi nolraitru by the letter word ny (the first letter of its principal brivla) and say
2) Mi gleki mi'ai lo nu mi nolraitru i je ny na cumki.2) Mi gleki mi'ai lo nu sei na cumki mi nolraitru.
I would be happy if I were king, and-jointly b (the event of my being king) is not possible.3) Mi gleki mi'ai lo nu mi nolraitru ije ny cumki jenai lakne.3) Mi gleki mi'ai lo nu sei cumki jenai lakne mi nolraitru.I would be happy if I were king, and-jointly b (the event of my being king) is possible but not likely.4) Mi gleki mi'ai lo nu mi nolraitru, ije ny lakne jenai se nibli.
4) Mi gleki mi'ai lo nu sei lakne jenai se nibli mi nolraitru.
I would be happy if I were king, and-jointly b (the event of my being king) is likely but not certain.5) Mi gleki mi'ai lo nu mi nolraitru, ije ny nibli.
5) Mi gleki mi'ai lo nu sei se nibli mi nolraitru.I would be happy if I were king, and-jointly b (the event of my being king) is certain.Five Other "Auxiliary Verbs"
- djica (4v) X will/intends/is motivated to do Y for motive Z
- kakne (3v) X can/is able to do Y
- ?bilga (3v) X should/ought to do Y
- ?se rinju (3v) X must/is obliged to do Y
- ?jai se curmi X may/is allowed/permitted to do Y
si'au It has become a bad habit to resume old infamous topics :D.--But since J.Clifford asked several weeks ago how I had solved the problem of subjunctives in Lojban I assume that our conversation here wasn't clear enough.Besides, the following topics were ignored:In this message I present the table with all parts found in Lojbanistan and in mia system of Loglan'1996.
- the topic of {cumki} wasn't touched although Robin clearly mentioned it as one of useful words. Besides, ignoring predicates is ignoring Loglandic goals themselves.
- Loglan. We have touched all the pages from Lojbanic twiki on subjunctiveness but haven't touched other languages. Namely, Loglan.
- gua\spi hasn't been touched
- Ithkuil (which is kinda The Guinness Book of Records of Rare Languages) has some solutions that are to be revised.
Ithkuil and loglandic examples adapted to lojban will be presented next time (me being a lojbanist is not a paid job so i'm not thinking of lojban every minute).
In the file attached you can see all solutions including loglandic. They wonderfully fit into one table.Note the addition of {lakne/la'a} to the analysis.Also note that la tsani recently suggested that {sei} should belong to the same semantic class as {fi'o}.If it's a fate of Lojban to become as simple as gua\spi and lose attitudinals (i.e. {sei}) vs. normal brivla (i.e. {fi'o}) distinction,well, here I am.If you don't agree with that you may replace {sei} with experimental cmavo {xoi} that is basically {fi'o se} but a bit better defined.
On Saturday, September 1, 2012 4:24:08 PM UTC+4, selpa'i wrote:Am 01.09.2012 08:18, schrieb la gleki:
> I don't see much difference. Who counts over possible worlds? The
> speaker. Does {romu'ei} mean really every possible world? I think it
> refers to all the possible worlds that the speaker has in mind.
Well, since mu'ei is ROI, it only refers to PA worlds in which the
tagged event is true. Since the speaker chooses the zo'e, it does indeed
refer to worlds that the speaker chooses to include. However, if the
zo'e is very far from what the audience might expect, you should
probably indicate that explicitly. Still, you are technically right.
mi do ro mu'ei lo du'u mi .e do zasti cu prami
I love you in every possible world in which you and I exist.(which is
quite an exaggeration, but has a nice poetic effect)
mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
--
pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo
^:i \jl /flr sen |ziu \su xn go kror
^:i \sym tfn /zu viw \xn jy ^jaiw
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