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Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla

On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 2:43 PM, Robert LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
Betsemes wrote:
<snip>
betsemes
solvor
camgusmis
xorxes

These are cmene


arxokuna
selpa'i
gleki
tsani

These are brivla used as "nicknames".  All sorts of words are used as nicknames in English, but they are not really "names".  Presumably no one would be given a nickname as their legal name, if Lojban were ever adopted as a legal language.

I find this hard to reconcile. Why is .camgusmis., which we all know is not Robin's given name, not a nickname, but tsani is? Is it simply because one if a cmene and the other is only a cmevla?

What about the dog named Bear? Would calling him la cribe when speaking in Lojban not be calling him by name, but by nickname? We have to call him la.cribes. to call him by name?

It seems odd to me to allow the usage of such constructs as la tsani, la gleki, etc., but disallow naming ourselves or others with them, and I don't like it. The whole reason many jbopre call themselves with cmevla is precisely because how outcast cmene are: must always be preceded /and/ followed by a glottal stop, must always end in a consonant, and may not have meaning- although they may be reflective of words that do.

This whole cmevla->brivla push seems to me to be an effort to make cmene less outcast, more useful. As for this naming convention thing, I'm staying out of it.

Personally, I think that cmene are better for foreign names, like la.parís., but I like the idea of natively naming our own stuff with cmevla. When speaking in Lojban, I like {la jbogu'e} better than {la.lojbanistan.}, I like {la jbobau} better than {la.lojban.}, and so on. It just feels more natural, which I know isn't much of an argument.

Also, all names were originally a description of the person in the language of that people. All of them. Some still are, like in Japanese names and other Asian tongues. Using cmene means divorcing names even further from their meaning, and I don't like that idea at all.

Very few people today- that aren't Jewish- know that "Jonathan" is Jewish for {lo se dunda be lo cevni}, and it's Lojbanization of {la.djanatyn.} would be even worse off, because the meaning would be stripped. I'll grant I don't know any people that would name their children {la cevyseldu'a}, but then again, I only know one jbopre with kids, and they're both girls.

My point is, I think that the meaning is important- and I realize that calling myself .aionys. doesn't live up to that, being as it's a meaningless Lojbanization of my online nickname. Honestly, my only reason for keeping .aionys. is that I've had it for so long everyone knows me by it, and I honestly have no idea what descriptive name I'd give myself anyway, being the uncreative person I am, in contrast to la stela selckiku, la selpa'i, la tsani, etc.

I mean, what would be the cmene for {la dansu kansa be lo labno}?

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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