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Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla



Given my earlier remarks, I think my position has to be that {la .tsani.} has as much to do with the sky as "Smith" has to do with a forge, always allowing that a particular user may want to insist on more (as in the {la cribe} case often cited).  That is, {la .selpa'i.} is purely denotative and whatever semantics (or grammar, for that matter) {selpa'i} may have are simply not relevant.  Note, this does not make {selpa'i} a name when it stands alone, only when it is properly marked off, so as to be clearly distinct from the predicate {selpa'i}. 


From: selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2013 6:06 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] cmevla as a class of brivla

la .lojbab. cu cusku di'e
> selpa'i wrote:
>> la .lojbab. cu cusku di'e
>>> What semantic distinctions arise from identifying
>>> something as a name as opposed to a normal description, I am not sure
>>> (but it would surely encompass the relevant place structures).
>>
>> But {la} doesn't describe. It names. I don't describe Jacob Errington as
>> a sky when I call him by la tsani, and neither does he describe himself
>> as a sky by giving himself that name. It's merely a label used to refer
>> to this individual, nothing more.
>
> But "tsani" itself is grammatically a brivla, and implicit
> (grammatically) in "la tsani" is "la tsani be ...".  The places are
> inseparable from the brivla.  That is fundamental to the language.

I agree that places are inseperable from a brivla in that the places are what the brivla means. All the places together determine the meaning, and usually, if one or more places aren't present, the meaning of the brivla is different. When I use {tsani}, I must be aware that it relates a sky to the place it's a sky of. *That* is fundamental to the language.

However, you seem to be saying that {la tsani} and {la tsani be zo'e} or {la tsani be da} are all people that share the exact same name. And this is where I disagree.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

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