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Re: [lojban] the future of Lojban's leadership



The biggest logical fallacy in this entire discourse is that the changes wanting to be made are dreamt up on a sterile whiteboard by 'language tinkerers' whatever the hell that actually means. The actual reality is that you have a substantial community (whether you want to hand wave us away as not being representitve somehow, a group of more than a handful of Lojban anything is substantial as far as I'm concerned) who is using the language daily, continuously throughout the day and have been doing so for years.

Those changes are the result of usage. Of finding what works and doesn't work for us as -users of the language-. What's happening here is that we would like to commit our findings back into the language so we can both claim to be speaking "Lojban" and so that we don't have to qualify everything as being 'official' or 'experimental' to the many and regular new comers that show up on our door.

Diminish and minimize us all you want. But understand it doesn't actually move your interlocutors to do so. We are aware of our own reality. If you're just singing to your own choir fine, but its important for the wider audience here to realize you're being offensively ignorant on this point.

No doubt - day to day - we sure spend a whole lot more time using and talking about Lojban than you characterize yourself to be doing. Please readjust your tone to acknowledge that the changes that are knocking at your door are legitimate concerns borne from -daily utilization-.

Regards.

On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 1:19 PM, Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
On 9/11/2014 12:02 PM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
I can see there are two major camps:
A. Language is frozen in what is both describes in CLL and is used + the
language is at the same time open to backward compatible changes
B. IRC/mailing list usage decides. Everything else has sense only if
doesn't contradict IRC/mailing list usage.


Scenario B completely ignores people who have paid their money to buy
CLL to learn the most described language in the world.

As a temporary solution I can suggest that LLG sells the rest of the
copies of CLL with a small handmade inset "How to use xorlo".

This should have been done in 2003 of course since xorlo is really
backward non-compatible and thus damaged the spread and the development
of Lojban by diverting newcomers.

I think the 1.1 CLL, that Robin is apparently working on, will accomplish a lot of what is needed.  We could perhaps come up with a set of change pages for purchasers of the original CLL, though I don't think that anyone will be willing to do the work.  Once 1.1 is done, I suspect that many of the proposed changes and additions based on usage can be discussed more rationally, especially if they are submitted with proposed change pages (and we *should* be able to do change pages from 1.1 to 2.0 fairly easily assuming the markup language doesn't change; original CLL was produced from a PDF produced by the then-version of Microsoft Word, and one needs that old proprietary version of Word in order to work with the original).

I suspect that Lojban can live with such a result, which will still be "the most described language in the world", and respect both older users as well as newer ones.  If we can essentially stop the prescriptive tweaking with 2.0, the future of the language is probably bright.

That at least is my vision of the moment %^)

lojbab


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