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Re: [lojban] Re: tersmu 0.2




On Sat, Oct 4, 2014 at 11:14 AM, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:
* Sunday, 2014-09-28 at 22:00 -0300 - Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>: 
 I take it then that the parser doesn't touch
> li-expressions, or at least some of them?

It handles matching operands with operators and so on, but quickly
arrives at a fixed point.

Does it unwrap "li mo'e lo broda" in any way? 
 
> > Hmm. I've been adopting {lo broda} == {zo'e noi broda} as absolute
> > dogma, so it's really making a side-claim that the referent(s) broda(s).
> > You think a more accurate dogma would be
> > {lo broda} == {zo'e noi ca'e broda}?
>
> No, I was thinking of "ca'e" as defining the new auxiliary variables
> introduced by the parsing.

I wouldn't say it's a definition exactly. That it brodas need not be
enough to pick the referent out uniquely, so I don't see that we can
take it as a definition.

I think it should be enough "in context". 

> But I do think that noi-clauses in general, and
> the noi-clause used in the espansion of "lo" in particular, have an
> illocutionary force different from assertions. I'm now thinking "zo'e noi
> sa'a broda" could be it.

Hmm. Could you spell out a bit more what this means? I'd interpret that
as "zo'e brodas, but this isn't the main point of my text", just making
explicit what's already implicit in relegating the assertion to
a noi-clause. I would take that kind of subtlety to be extralogical.

Compare "ta" with "lo va dacti", which I take to be roughly equivalent. When a speaker uses "ta", are they making any claims just by saying "ta"? I don't think they are, they are just using a referring _expression_. When explaining what the speaker means when they say "ta broda", from a metalinguistic point of view, one can make some claims about the speech act that the speaker themself is not making, such as: "there is some object close to the listener such that the speaker is pointing at it, and the speaker is claiming of that object that it brodas", but the only claim made by the speaker is "it brodas", not "I'm pointing at it and it is close to you". Similarly, when the speaker says "lo broda cu brode", the speaker is only claiming that it brodes, and it is using the description "lo broda" in order for the listener to know what "it" refers to, not to make any claims about it. Or would you also expand "ti broda" as "It is close to you and I'm pointing at it. It brodas."?

I would say that whatever claim there is in "lo broda" has the same kind of illocutionary force that a claim hidden in "ta", "mi", "do", "ko'a", etc.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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