Re: [lojban] Question about tanru and lujvo invention

Thank you very much for your reply!

I wonder if there's way to express exactly one metaphorical meaning but without using lujvo. For example, in English 'ace in the hole' has special meaning, however I suppose such a rather complex idiom should better not be made into a single word lujvo, and without using tanru as well.

Sorry about keep doubting on this problem. When I tell people around me that I'm learning lojban, and introduce some of its concepts to them, the common reaction is usually 'Isn't it too rigid compared with natural language?' or 'Can artistic literature be created with it, without feeling like some text under rules?' or 'Won't it be so regular that some beauty is lost?'. Actually these are also some questions I want to ask. A list of a thousand cmavo for merely grammatical use seems that the language focuses too much on grammar. (Maybe it's the cost of syntax unambiguity?)

I understand that these questions are raised due to a conventional impression on 'logical language' which are not pondered over deeply and thoroughly. Even though I carefully pick up the most delicate sentence I can find in literature, it's still under the grammar of that language in which the sentence is written. That makes me think maybe grammar doesn't actually constrain semantics as much as I used to feel. But I'm not quite sure about that.

The doubt probably won't be dispelled until I actually see some creative text originally written in lojban to convince me enough. I noticed there's translation for Alice. My current lojban skills still can't support me to read it, so I will keep on learning and come back to see this question.

Yet another question, how are gismu semantics be chosen? i.e. How to determine if a certain meaning is 'basic enough'?

And finally, thanks again for answering my beginner question!

On Saturday, December 12, 2015 at 1:18:58 AM UTC, Wuzzy wrote:

Since I think nobody actually answered the questions but just babbled
around it, I'll answer them.

> For example, cadzu mroxadni (walking corpse) can mean zombie, but
> also (more artistically) someone who's not living a meaningful life.
> For me, both of the meanings are interesting, it seems a pity to lose
> either of it.
You don't “lose” one or the other meaning by creating a lujvo, because
you can always create another lujvo, but the other lujvo must be based
on a different tanru.
So the second meaning is not lost, it is just differently expressed.

> So I wonder is there some way to record both concepts down?
Yes. Of course it is possible to pin down both concepts. You do this by
using lujvo built from different tanru.

As for your example, the second meaning sounds very metaphorically, so
I would throw a “pe'a” into it; “pe'a” has a rafsi, so you could build
a lujvo like “pevdzumroxadni” for the methaphor.

> More
> generally, how to assign different "shortcuts" (like lujvo) to
> different meanings of a single tanru?
This is not possible without breaking the rules of Lojban.
As you have said, a lujvo represents a single meaning of the many
possible interpretations of a tanru.

That way, you can be sure that “gerzda” simply means “dog house” and
not something far-fetched, like a house which looks like a dog (which
could be one of many possible interpretations of “gerku zdani”). ;-)

The general rule is simply: 1 lujvo = 1 meaning.

But what you could try is try to kinda work around this. If you really
think a tanru has two equally “important” meanings, try to make a
slight variation. For your second meaning, alter a word or two. Or
maybe throw in some cmavo (like “pe'a” if you are using a metaphor).

--
Wuzzy
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E-Mail: wuz...@mail.ru