[lojban-beginners] Re: ke'a

["Michael Turniansky" <mturniansky@gmail.com>]

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 12:24 PM, Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 7/22/08, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 9:29 AM, Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On 7/22/08, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 8:22 AM, Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >  lo nanmu poi mi viska ro lo karce poi ke'a vecnu ke'a
>> >> >  The man who I saw all the cars he sold.
>> >> >
>> >> > In English, there is a logically equivalent reversed version:
>> >> >
>> >> >  The man who sold only those cars I saw.
>> >> >
>> >> > But in Lojban we don't have a restricted quantifier "only", so
>> >> > we don't seem to have that option.
>> >>
>> >>  lo nanmu poi ke'a vecnu ro lo po'o karce poi mi viska ke'a
>> >> ?
>> >
>> > The "ro" is wrong, because I might have seen some other
>> > car he didn't sell.
>> >
>> > And the po'o says that he didn't sell _anything_ besides
>> > the cars I saw, but what we need to say is that he didn't sell
>> > _any car_ besides the ones I saw. He might have sold other
>> > things.
>>
>> Oh, I thought that's what you wanted.  You wanted to say the only cars
>> he sold were those that you saw, but he might not have sold all of
>> those?
>
> I wanted something logically equivalent to:
>
>> >> >  lo nanmu poi mi viska ro lo karce poi ke'a vecnu ke'a
>> >> >  The man who I saw all the cars he sold.
>
> but that will also move "vecnu" up and "viska" down.
>
>> lo nanmu poi ke'a vecnu lo karce poi po'o mi viska ke'a
>>
>> works fine for that.  "The man who sold cars that were (only those) seen by me.
>
> {po'o} seems to apply to the restriction on the cars, not
> to the cars. I read that as "He sold cars that are only
> restricted to my having seen them", but it doesn't preclude
> his selling other cars as well.
>
  Well, I think we'll have to disagree on this point.  To me "poi
po'o" means "restricted solely to".  Without the po'o there, we
already are restricting the set ("the cars that were seen by me" as
opposed to using noi, which would not restrict it), but adding the
po'o at this point inthe utterance adds exclusivity as well.

              --gejyspa