[lojban-beginners] Re: questions about 'cu'

[ianek <janek37@gmail.com>]

Neither jbofi'e nor camxes accept {ca broda ca brode}, which would be
the case if it were a possible tanru. http://camxes.lojban.org/?text=loca%20broda%20ca%20brode

mu'o mi'e ianek

On 29 Lut, 11:54, Patrick <sonarman...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Alright, I found it (I think).  CLL C 5, S 13, last sentence:  " Tense,
> modal, and negation cmavo can appear only at the beginning of the selbri.
> They cannot be embedded within it. "  That means that we can have our
> descriptor of selma'o LE, followed by the slot for a PU cmavo (or,
> technically, NA or modal or other tense cmavo), followed by exactly on
> selbri, be it a tanru or just a single brivla.  That leads to A) an
> unambiguous interpretation of "lo ca klama" as "the current goer", and B)
> of "lo klama ca pinxe" as "the goer is currently drinking",  and C) of "lo
> ca klama ca pinxe" as "the current goer is currently drinking", since the
> "ca pinxe" cannot be absorbed as part of the tanru.  Mystery solved.
>
> My reasoning is always potentially wrong, thanks for watching out for me
> and keeping me straight, Mr. Abbat.  If I'm still wrong or uncited (as good
> as wrong) somewhere, please feel free to point it out again.  :D
>
> mi'e .tavic. .i mi sipna
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 12:41 AM, Patrick <sonarman...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Well, so far I haven't managed to find anything which says the way I wrote
> > it is wrong.  "LE PU broda" constructions and "LE broda PU brode" both
> > appear, with the meaning of the "LE PU broda" being equivalent to what I
> > said it would be individually (CLL C 10 12.12), and "LE broda PU brode"
> > giving the meaning I said that fragment would have (CLL, C 6, 2.8),
> > however, I haven't yet found any examples of the two types together
> > (namely, "LE PU broda PU brode") and *why* that's unambiguous.  CLL C 10
> > *does* say " The placement of a tense construct within a Lojban bridi is
> > easy: right before the selbri. It goes immediately after the ``cu'', and
> > can in fact always replace the ``cu'' (although in very complex sentences
> > the rules for eliding terminators may be changed as a result). "  I feel
> > confident in thinking that what I wrote is both gramatically correct and
> > conveyed the meaning I wanted it to, I'm just looking for how I'm right.
> > Will update again soon.
>
> > mi'e .tavic.
>
> > On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 12:28 AM, Patrick <sonarman...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Hmm, I'm not sure.  There might have to still be a "cu" in there, but I'm
> >> not positive.  I think maybe you can't nest PU inside of tanru?  I'll get
> >> back to you in a few minutes.  My disclaimer before I begin to find out
> >> just how wrong I am:  I'm very tired, and it's very late in my time zone.
> >>  Write again soon.
>
> >> mi'e .tavic.
>
> >> On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 11:55 PM, Klaus F. Abel <k...@gmx.net> wrote:
>
> >>> On Tue, 28 Feb 2012 23:07:58 -1000
> >>> Patrick <sonarman...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> > Well, I wouldn't say that "ca" (or any of selma'o PU) can replace "cu"
> >>> > unambiguously.  Take the following sentence:
>
> >>> > lo ca klama ca pinxe
>
> >>> > In this case, the first "ca" attaches to the sumti to make it mean
> >>> > something like "the one currently going", where the second "ca"
> >>> attaches to
> >>> > the selbri of the entire bridi, for a total meaning of "the one
> >>> currently
> >>> > going is currently drinking", possibly alluding to someone drinking
> >>> while
> >>> > driving or biking.
>
> >>> How do you identify "pinxe" as a selbri in this case at all, i.e. what
> >>> stops one from reading the whole "ca klama ca pinxe" as a tanru (regardless
> >>> of how it would make sense in translation)? Is this really ambiguous, or
> >>> just plain wrong (the selbri reading, I mean)?
>
> >>> Klaus
>
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