Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Reuse request

You do realize that changing the place structures of valsi that do not fit the pattern of their group to fit the pattern and thus erase exceptions would make remembering the entire group easier, while adding a new word, of any kind, to the language, makes the language harder, yes?

Here's an example:

mamta - x1 is a mother of x2; x1 bears/mothers/acts maternally toward x2; [not necessarily biological]
patfu     - x1 is a father of x2; x1 begets/sires/acts paternal towards x2; [not necessarily biological]
rirni       - x1 is a parent of/raises/rears x2; x1 mentors/acts parental toward child/protege x2
famti     - x1 is an aunt/uncle of x2 by bond/tie x3; x1 is an associated member of x2's parent's generation
panzi    - x1 is a [biological] offspring/child/kid/hybrid of parent(s) x2; (adjective:) x1 is filial
tixnu     - x1 is a daughter of mother/father/parents x2; [not necessarily biological]
bersa    - x1 is a son of mother/father/parents x2 [not necessarily biological]
bruna    - x1 is brother of/fraternal to x2 by bond/tie/standard/parent(s) x3; [not necess. biological]
mensi   - x1 is a sister of/sororal to x2 by bond/tie/standard/parent(s) x3; [not necessarily biological]

Notice how all of those are familial relationships, but some have a "by bond" x3 place, and some don't? This is what we call an exception. To make things doubly irritating, all of these words contain the information that the relationship is not necessarily biological, /including/ the ones that don't give you a place to say what kind of relationship it is!

Do you really want to have to remember which ones have the "by bond" x3 and which don't? If they /all/ did, then the place structure of the entire group would be "x1 is <familial relationship> of x2 by bond x3", and all you'd need to remember for that individual valsi is which <familial relationship> that valsi is, and additionally would enable a person to say "I have an adopted son." without accidentally placing the bond "adopted" into the non-existent x3 place that /ought/ to be there, or resorting to using BAI to make it have that place tag.

In short, there are /NO/ harmful effects to regulating the place structure's of similar words. For example, if all measurement valsi had the exact same place structure, differing only in the thing being measured, then that means for all of those valsi we would only need to remember one place structure.

Exceptions crop up in every language, and they are /always/ /bad/.

On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 7:32 AM, gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

Please don't change anything in gismu definitions!
We may ignore some sumti place, use sumtcita for "by bond..." etc.
but don't change the existing rules.
In extreme cases let's just create new gismu in favor of elder ones
but this
would be something extraordinal.

The only thing I can accept in the nearest future is from Lojbanic
born
children (doi .robin. .a'o ta baza zasti vau .u'i)

On May 9, 4:25 pm, ianek <jane...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 9, 2012 2:12:55 PM UTC+2, xorxes wrote:
>
> > On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 12:08 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> > > On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 7:29 PM, Jorge Llambías wrote:
>
> > >> son-in-law would usually be tixspe ("nakni pazyspe", "male
> > >> offspring-spouse") would be a more exact translation, which is not
> > >> necessarily better.
>
> > > You know, I really, really dislike the use of a word meaning female to
> > > describe a male (and vice-versa),
>
> > Do you dislike "maternal grandfather" and "paternal grandmother" too?
>
> > >and not because it's prejudicial to
> > > homosexual relationships- although that is an excellent additional
> > reason,
> > > imo.
>
> > It's just a different grouping than in English. English "son-in-law"
> > groups the male spouses of the offspring in a single word, whatever
> > the sex of the offspring, while Lojban "tixspe" groups the spouses of
> > the female offspring in one word, whatever the sex of the spouses.
> > Both words allow for homosexual marriages, just different ones.
>
> > > At this point, "pazyspe" seems like the best option to me. I don't
> > honestly
> > > care about the lack of gender specification- we already know he's a guy.
>
> > Right, that's more general.
>
> > > So, if {ko'a tixspe ko'e} is {ko'a speni lo tixnu be ko'e}, what is
> > {ko'a
> > > bersa ko'e ki'u lodu'u speni lo ri panzi}?
>
> > But why should marrying someone have to make you the son of their
> > parents? You could even be older than their parents, which makes
> > calling yourself their son sound even more strange. Just because
> > English happens to use the same word for "son" and "son-in-law"
> > doesn't mean Lojban should.
>
> > > Also, why is it that all the familial gismu have a "by bond x3" except
> > bersa
> > > and tixnu? I hate it when I encounter exceptions like that.
>
> > Yes, it's annoying.
>
> So let's change it! I mean, we should gather complaints like that and make
> new versions of Lojban from time to time (once a couple of years?).
>
> If there are annoying things in Lojban and we know how to fix them, then we
> should stop complaining and do something! It's our language, there's nobody
> to stop us!
>
> I have similar thoughts about jbovlaste, but I'll better start another
> thread for that.
>
> mu'o mi'e ianek
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > I think from this point, I'm going to start /pretending/ they do have
> > the
> > > "by bond" x3. So, what's the lujvo for {ko'a bersa ko'e lo nunspe}?
>
> > That would be a stepson, right? Or is it a son-in-law? It depends on
> > whose marriage we are talking about.
>
> > > doi.xorxes. So, to make sure, spepa'u and spemamta are the correct
> > words?
>
> > For "patfu lo speni" and "mamta lo speni". Or you could use "sperirni"
> > for both if you don't want sex to be involved.
>
> > > Regarding #72: I'm not missing anything, right?
>
> > I don't think "lo se nanca" makes sense there.
>
> > mu'o mi'e xorxes

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