Re: [lojban-beginners]

On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 3:13 PM, Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com> wrote:

You failed to notice that they are not regular at all as three glosses you wrote are all different.

No I didn't. They are "different" because the -bo'e of each have different amount of sumti places: gasnu has 2, mutce 3, and traji 4. All three still follow the jvajvo rule precisely: sumti fill the -bo'e places FIRST, excepting the place that takes an argument which is filled by the rod- selbri abstractified (and I'm sure that's not a word.)

If it's just a generic rule that you have to make "adjustments", yours is as good as mine.

The only adjustments you need to make are where in the -bo'e places the rod- absraction goes, and how many of the sumti go to -ro'e before ro-d gets any. The first is dependant on which -ro'e is being used, because while the vast majority have the abstraction in the x2 place, some, like mleca, have it in the x3 or even the x4 on rare occasions, and the second is dependant on how many places the -bo'e has.

I'll rewrite my list to incoporte your so-called "rule" hoping that some other will care enough to have a look and contribute.

First of all, it's not my rule, and second of all, it's not a "so-called" rule, it's an actual rule. It's part of the CLL, in Chapter 12, although I'm not going to bother trying to find the exact section.

You can read up on the history of jvajvo, originally known as dikyjvo, starting on this page: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/dikyjvo

remod

On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 10:57 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 2:44 PM, Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com> wrote:

Good. Since it seems that my list isn't good enough (not even to be commented on), would you care making one?

Me? No. I just got done with a huge Lojban project (Lojban Gismu Audio), I'm currently in the process of applying that project (uploading the audio to the Memrise lesson), I don't see a need to make a jvajvo table- I mean, jvajvo are regular, you can determine what any of them are just by applying the rule(s), I'm not up to tackling another huge project, especially one I consider pointless, and I'm cerain it would be far easier for you to fix your table than to have someone else start one from scratch.

So, to reiterate, this is the rule for jvajvo: the second rafsi is the selbri. The first rafsi is the abstraction that fills the selbri's abstraction place, as the appropriate type of abstraction. The jvajvo's sumti fill first the places of the selbri in order excepting the abstraction place which is filled by the abstraction, and then if any remain fill the places of the abstraction in order.

Some examples:

rodgau = ko'a gasnu lonu ko'e broda ko'i ko'o ko'u fo'a

rodtce = ko'a mutce loka ko'i broda ko'o ko'u fo'a fo'e kei ko'e

rodyrai = ko'a traji loka ko'o broda ko'u fo'a fo'e fo'i kei ko'e ko'i

I don't believe there are any 5-place gismu that can be -bo'e, so the above is an example of each possible type of jvajvo. (Obviously the few 1-place gismu can't be -bo'e, either.)

I'd like to make a cheat sheet and post it in the wiki as I did for the "periodic table of pro-sumti and pro-bridi", the attitutude/rethoric cmavo and the terminology mindmap!

remod

On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 10:26 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 9:47 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 1:40 PM, Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com> wrote:

You're not suggesting that the same rule applies to {-me'a}, right?

Basically, yes.

Ok, but if (following the {-gau} pattern)
{ko'a rodme'a ko'e ko'i ko'o ko'u fo'a}
means
{ko'a mleca lo su'u ko'e broda ko'i k'o' ko'u fo'a}

I fail to understand how something may be less than an abstraction. The problem is that mleca2 is the term of comparison.

Yes, in the case of rodme'a, it would be {mleca fi lo [ka/ni] broda}, hence the need for minor adjustments depending on the actual gismu in use.

In the list I made I try to accound for the difference in sumti places. Writing down the gloss in Lojban makes clear how each one shouldbe used

Maybe those changes in my list are the "adjustments" you mentioned?

remo

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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