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Re: [lojban-beginners] Tanru-internal connectives, place structure, non-sense



(arrghh.. this is getting far beyond beginner level)
  
  But I claim that an implicit zo'e is NOT the same as an explicit one (I will leave open the question of whether you can you can use the value of "zi'o" for a "zo'e"  I don't think you can, because it creates an entirely new selbri, but I will  be willing to accept the opposite argument)... and I think I can get you to agree.  Consider the following...

  1)   Some selbri have INFINITELY many numbered places (du and jutsi, notably) So are you asserting that if something doesn't have a higher order in a taxonomy, for example, that I have to add an infinite number of "zi'o" to any sentence using "jutsi" (since "zo'e" won't do?).

  2) (weaker argument)  Besides numbered places, every selbri has a infinite number of unnumbered places, from BAI and all FIhO SELBRI FEhU. (and reasonably, other sumti tcita such as tenses might be considered to be subsumed in here as well).  Do all these have implicit zo'e?  How about those that cannot make any sense?  (You can easily undercut this argument by saying "implicit zo'e-dom only applies to numbered places.  But then again, remember that you CAN say "mi blanu lo mlatu" and there "lo mlatu" is basically equivalent to "do'e lo mlatu", but it is explicitly in a numbered (but unknown relationship) sumti place.  You can have an infinite number of these, so this becomes argument #1).

  If you accept either argument 1 or 2, you must concede that either every sentence is "faulty" (your word), or that you don't have to specify every place, and that doesn't invalidate bridi (so implicit zo'e must either be different than explicit zo'e, or can also include values like "zi'o" or "no da")

                     --gejyspa






On Mon, Nov 11, 2013 at 4:22 PM, selpa'i <m3o@plasmatix.com> wrote:
On 11.11.2013 18:04, Michael Turniansky wrote:
On Mon, Nov 11, 2013 at 9:21 AM, selpa'i <m3o@plasmatix.com> wrote:
If you say it has no x2, then I assume you would say that in:

   mi klama je sutra lo tricu

{lo tricu} actually fills klama3 and it fills neither klama2 nor sutra2. How can this be practically used? In which case it would mean:

  No, I would not say that.  When I said " 'sutra je jipci' doesn't
have an x2," I wasn't generalizing to _all_ broda JA brode.  If you
SPECIFY something in that spot, as in your sentence, you ARE saying
the same as "mi klama gi'e sutra vau lo tricu" and you darn well
better be using something that can fit both of the underlying x2
places (Which obviously "lo tricu" cannot) .  

But there is something in that place either way. It's either something explicit, or it's {zo'e}.


What I was asserting was
that since the set of all things that are both se sutra and se jipci
is an empty set (as far as I can reasonably ascertain), it /de facto/
has no x2 place, not that it has no x2 place by nature of the
construction.

Okay. In other words, there is an x2, but nothing can sensibly fill it. The moment you use it, the sentence becomes nonsense.

{.i sutra je jipci} is the same as {.i zo'e sutra je jipci zo'e}. It claims that something fills that x2.


  Therefore as long as your sentence doesn't try to put something
into that place, there is no problem with asserting the sentence "mi
sutra je jipci" is meaningful (I guess, to put it another way, I am
asserting that an implicit "zo'e" (but probably not, pe'i, an explicit
"zo'e") in fact doesn't have to be something that can really exist.

A {zo'e} always has some value that makes the bridi true. But whatever the {zo'e} in {sutra je jipci}'s x2 is, it cannot make the bridi true (because no such value exists), so the whole predicate is faulty.


mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

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