[lojban-beginners] Re: ok, lambda/currying-geeks needed (was Re: Re: "Once More")

[Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>]

On 12/14/05, Sunnan <sunnan@handgranat.org> wrote:
 > Maybe these tense-prefixing PA could be constructed from su'i pa with
> the proper currying/lambda-wrapping method?

Not with the current grammar, which only allows pure numbers in
front of ROI. No operators in any way.

> I do totally dislike Lojbans attitudinal system[1] so I know that Lojban
> isn't perfect. But it would be a shame if the mekso system was also bad.

I wouldn't say it's bad per se, it just doesn't seem to belong with
the rest of the language. But I don't want to prejudice you, maybe
you will like it. :)

> [1]:
> One problem with the attitudinal system is that it's based on opposing
> axes, like love being an opposite of hate.

Well, that does give you two (or three even) for the price of one.

> Another is that it's constructed from a list of English emotions -- one
> of the first things I wanted to write/say was an attitudinal to replace
> "the tone of voice you have when revealing a great secret", and of
> course, non exists.

Maybe {bi'u}, {bi'u sai}?

> I've seen complaints by others that there's also no
> simple attitudinal for non-English concepts like shadenfreude

{uu nai}, {uu nai ui}?

> or ennui

{.u'i nai}?

> and I agree with this problem. It's so limited, static, frozen. Here's
> more:
> Nausea,

{.a'u nai}?

> isolation (scratch this one, I guess o'enai does the job),
> suspicion,

{ii ru'e}?

>jealousy,

{.i'o nai}?

>righteousness,

{.u'u cu'i}?

> and more?

{uo nai} :)

> Some of these may exist but it's not an easy system to find my way
> around, it's more like a static list of emotions coupled with negations
> and (somewhat arbitrary) oppositions.

Have you checked:
<http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=BPFK+Section%3A+Realis+Attitudinals>?

Anyway, I agree it could have been more systematic, but it's not as
incomplete as it may seem at first. And most of these words have
seen very little usage, so if some hole is found, it is often possible
to extend the sense of some towards what's wanted.

> Thirdly, and related to both preceding problems -- it's so distinct from
> regular lojban, it feels like it's painted on or glued on. It's not
> based on gismu or selbri or anything else.

You can construct an attitudinal from a selbri with sei + selbri.

As for their free grammar, I think that's a plus, although they might
have been easier to use if they modified what follows them rather
than what precedes them.

mu'o mi'e xorxes