[lojban-beginners] Re: ok, lambda/currying-geeks needed (was Re: Re: "Once More")

[Sunnan <sunnan@handgranat.org>]

On Wed, 2005-12-14 at 17:18 -0300, Jorge Llambías wrote:
> On 12/14/05, Sunnan <sunnan@handgranat.org> wrote:
>  > Maybe these tense-prefixing PA could be constructed from su'i pa with
> > the proper currying/lambda-wrapping method?
> 
> Not with the current grammar, which only allows pure numbers in
> front of ROI. No operators in any way.

Can variables such as 'ti' be used? Are there a default variable
(similar to perl's $_) that operators can be provided for?

> > I do totally dislike Lojbans attitudinal system[1] so I know that Lojban
> > isn't perfect. But it would be a shame if the mekso system was also bad.
> 
> I wouldn't say it's bad per se, it just doesn't seem to belong with
> the rest of the language. But I don't want to prejudice you, maybe
> you will like it. :)

I just might. We'll see.

> 
> > [1]:
> > One problem with the attitudinal system is that it's based on opposing
> > axes, like love being an opposite of hate.
> 
> Well, that does give you two (or three even) for the price of one.

But it might have an unwelcome side-effect in the sapir-whorf part of
the brain. Love and hate can coexist (and make you suffer, like in
battered-wife-syndrome where you can have problems hating your abuser
enough to leave, because hate is supposed to be incompatible with the
love you still have).

> > Another is that it's constructed from a list of English emotions -- one
> > of the first things I wanted to write/say was an attitudinal to replace
> > "the tone of voice you have when revealing a great secret", and of
> > course, non exists.
> 
> Maybe {bi'u}, {bi'u sai}?

Maybe. Combining bi'u with a "secrecy"-attitudinal would cover it.

> > I've seen complaints by others that there's also no
> > simple attitudinal for non-English concepts like shadenfreude
> 
> {uu nai}, {uu nai ui}?

Yes! Or variants like ui.uunairu'e

> > or ennui
> 
> {.u'i nai}?

I don't like this one so much; the distinction between weariness and
ennui is something I'd like to keep.
Maybe it can be done with UI4 but that still makes a sapir-whorf-y
connection between them (similar to the love/hate problem).

> > and I agree with this problem. It's so limited, static, frozen. Here's
> > more:
> > Nausea,
> 
> {.a'u nai}?

Yes, or a'unairo'o

> > isolation (scratch this one, I guess o'enai does the job),
> > suspicion,
> 
> {ii ru'e}?

Maybe iiro'aru'e is better? This one is still a bit iffy.

> >jealousy,
> 
> {.i'o nai}?

Perfect!

> >righteousness,
> 
> {.u'u cu'i}?

Maybe. I'm looking for the word for the feeling of "We're doing the
Right Thing here!"

> > and more?
> 
> {uo nai} :)

ui!

> > Some of these may exist but it's not an easy system to find my way
> > around, it's more like a static list of emotions coupled with negations
> > and (somewhat arbitrary) oppositions.
> 
> Have you checked:
> <http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=BPFK+Section%3A+Realis+Attitudinals>?

Some of them seem to collide with what I'm used to from my home
languages; like a'a which in sweden is often used for insight. "aha,
that's new information to me!" or "aha, what a brilliant idea".
But that won't be a problem to the jbojbe.

> Anyway, I agree it could have been more systematic, but it's not as
> incomplete as it may seem at first.

No, apparently not! I'm much happier with this system now.
I'd still wish there weren't so much reliance on "nai"; that nai could
be a compliment to available opposing words. (Just like xla- in lojban
today -- it's used, but most of the time there are different words for
different things.)

>  And most of these words have
> seen very little usage, so if some hole is found, it is often possible
> to extend the sense of some towards what's wanted.
> 
> > Thirdly, and related to both preceding problems -- it's so distinct from
> > regular lojban, it feels like it's painted on or glued on. It's not
> > based on gismu or selbri or anything else.
> 
> You can construct an attitudinal from a selbri with sei + selbri.

Really?

.ibi'usei se mipri noda jetnu
Would that really work?

> As for their free grammar, I think that's a plus, although they might
> have been easier to use if they modified what follows them rather
> than what precedes them.

I kinda like that part, you can add it to a name to instantly judge that
person, like mi pu terxa'a fe la xorxes.i'e