[lojban-beginners] Re: ok, lambda/currying-geeks needed (was Re: Re: "Once More")

[Sunnan <sunnan@handgranat.org>]

On Wed, 2005-12-14 at 12:28 -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> No.  Believe me, I've tried.  There is no way at all to stick VU'U
> in front of ROI, no matter how you wrap it.
> 
> I could, of course, be wrong.

I'm certainly not an expert. (Please also see my answer to xorxes.)

> > I do totally dislike Lojbans attitudinal system[1]
> [snip]
> 
> Interesting.  That's one of my favorite parts of the language.

Maybe because I don't know it well enough (I took such an instant
dislike to it that I didn't learn it further). I'm liking it more now
already.

> > Another is that it's constructed from a list of English emotions
> > -- one of the first things I wanted to write/say was an
> > attitudinal to replace "the tone of voice you have when revealing
> > a great secret", and of course, non exists. I've seen complaints
> > by others that there's also no simple attitudinal for non-English
> > concepts like shadenfreude or ennui and I agree with this problem.
> 
> Adding more is certainly possible.  Having said that, however,
> you're talking about *incredibly* complex emotional states.  Hardly
> the things one uses intejections for.  Are there interjections in
> German or French for these emotions?  I doubt it.

Maybe there's a special laughter that some humans use only for
shadenfreude? And special tears for ennui.

> Having said all that:
> 
> "the tone of voice you have when revealing a great secret" isn't an
> emotion, of course, but I think you're looking for something like
> "ti'e vu'e nai .u'e"

Yes, that could certainly work for some situations -- I especially like
the u'e in that context.

> Schadenfreude is ".ui nai dai .ui" or "le'o .ui", possibly with vu'e
> nai thrown in.

uinaidai.ui is great. It doesn't have the connotations of aggression,
cruelty or sin -- if either of those are to be implied, they can be
added.
> > It's so limited, static, frozen. 
> 
> That's what experimental cmavo space is for.

Alright.

> > Here's more:
> > Nausea, 
> 
> Nausea is *NOT* an emotion.

It's not? Maybe "nausea" is not the word I'm looking for, then, I'm
looking for a word/interjection for the emotion I always have when I
feel nausea.

> Having said that, again, ".a'u nai ro'o" or ".au nai ro'o" both fit
> pretty well.

Yes.

> > suspicion, 
> 
> That's just .ii

I'm thinking more like mistrust.

> > jealousy, 
> 
> .i'o nai

Yes.

> > righteousness, 
> 
> vu'e

That's a perfect fit! Thanks.

> > and more?
> 
> This is a fun game.  Why stop now?

I'm glad it didn't annoy you!
(Would that be ui.o'odai?)

> > Some of these may exist but it's not an easy system to find my way
> > around, 
> 
> That's something the BPFK is trying to work on.

I'm happy to hear that.

> I think you may miss the point of the UI cmavo: the point of them is
> *not* to make complex, analytical statements about emotion.  The
> point is to have noises that are built into your brain as "the sound
> I make to express an internal emotional state", like "ow" in
> English, and to have lots of them, and to have them appear in
> dictionaries.
> 
> If you're thinking about attitudinals before you say them, you're
> using them incorrectly.

I'm thinking hard before I put them in the mouth of characters in
fiction. The same goes for all non-native languages I'd write in,
whether it's english, french, swedish outside my local cant/argot, or
lojban.

> This, unfortunately, includes basically
> everyone, AFAIK.

For now.