[lojban] Re: le gusta co minde mutce

["Jorge Llambías" <jjllambias@gmail.com>]

On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 11:07 PM, Elias Friedman <skierb27@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jorge, the situations you have mentioned in your message are not using
> "motive" correctly; in place of "motive", those statements should be using
> "action".

If you replace "motive" with "action" in those sentences, the meaning changes:
Compare:

(1) his motive was to attract votes from the border states
(2) his action was to attract votes from the border states

(1) doesn't say that he attracted votes from border states: he did
something else with the goal of attracting votes from the border
states (which goal may or may not have been attained). (2) says that
he did attract votes from the border states.

> A motive is a reason for someone to do something;

Yes, certainly. A motive is whatever moves someone to do something.

> in the
> situations you have mentioned, the "to do something
>  is incorrectly being called a motive.

It's the goal that moved them to do whatever it is they did. Here's a
dictionary definition of "motive":

1. something that causes a person to act in a certain way, do a
certain thing, etc.; incentive.
2. the goal or object of a person's actions: Her motive was revenge.

The examples I gave are all of sense 2.

> For example, in the situation "to cover up a politically embarrassing
> problem for his bosses", the person's motive is, most likely, the necessity
> of keeping his job.

Yes, that's probably part of the chain of motives: in order to keep
their job, they needed to cover up the embarrassing problem, and in
order to cover up the problem, they did whatever it is they did. But
it doesn't matter what the "real" motive behind their action is, the
point is what kind of thing can properly be claimed as a motive. "To
cover up a politically embarrassing problem" is something that can be
claimed as a motive. Whether or not deep down that was the real or
most important motive is a separate issue.

> Also, in the situation "to attract votes from the border states", the
> person's motive is, most likely, his or her desire to win the election.
> A goal of an action cannot be a motive of the same action; however, the
> necessity of such a goal's realization can be a motive of the action.

Here's the context for that quote:

"An Op-Ed article Wednesday on doing away with the office of vice
president indicated that President Lincoln's motive for choosing his
second-term running mate, Andrew Johnson, was to carry Tennessee. In
fact, his motive was to attract votes from the border states;"

Lincoln's action was choosing Johnson as his running mate.
His motive for that action, according to the Op-Ed article, was to
carry Tennessee.
His real motive, according to this other article, was to attract votes
from the border states.

> I have also performed a Google search for "his motive was to", and I came
> across many results following my definition of "motive"; I saw very few
> usages in the manner you described.

The ones I gave were all from the first page of hits, I didn't have to
look hard for them. And I have no problem with your definition. But
for some reason you want to exclude the goals of an action as
something that can move someone to carry out that action.

> tijlan,
> It does not matter whether or not you said that "to buy butter" was an
> action, as it is an action regardlessly.  "To buy butter" is not an
> intention.

But "my intention is to buy butter" seems like a normal thing to say.
What is an intention if not something that someone intends to do?

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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