Re: [lojban] Re: cusku - say or express?

[Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>]

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 12:53 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
> The keyword of bacru is "utter", because "orgle-borgle", "squeak", and other
> such onomatopeia are all utterances.

Yes.

> A creaky door is a valid {lo bacru},

Not quite. "bacru" is for linguistic utterances. For non-linguistic
utterances there's "cmoni", which is mostly what animals do, a door is
more of a "se sance" than a "cmoni" or a "bacru". Metaphorically, I'd
prefer to go with "cmoni" for the door, but "bacru" could do as well.

> but it is not a valid {lo cusku}.

Literally, a door can neither bacru nor cusku, since it doesn't have a
vocal tract or a mind. Metaphorically, the sky is the limit.

> I think the salient difference is that {lo
> se cusku} is something imparting meaning, whereas {lo se bacru} is merely
> some sort of noise.

"lo se cusku" can be written or signed, "lo se bacru" has to be
uttered. It is not just any noise, it has to be linguistic sound.

> I do agree with Robin that "express" is a better keyword than "say", not
> because "say" doesn't work, but because it is misleading.

"Express" is more misleading, since we express ideas, not words. We say words.

> Someone learning
> that {cusku} means "x1 says x2 ...." will very probably assume that this
> means only verbal expression of a concept, which is not true of {cusku}.

Why would anyone assume that? You can say something in writing or by
signing just as well as verbally.

> However, {bacru} is definitely not "say".

Right.

>  If we want to fiddle with
> semantics, the appropriate lojbo valsi (IMO) for "say" would be {ba'usku}
> (bacru cusku): "x1 says (verbally expresses) x2 to x3 via medium x4"

No need to fiddle. "ba'usku" is fine for "verbally say" but not so
good for "verbally express". You don't verbally express words, you
verbally express ideas. The x2 of cusku is text/words/signs, not
ideas.

mu'o mi'e xorxes