Re: [lojban] What gets into 'lo broda'

[John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>]

I was afraid that would be the answer to the parenthetical question.  At least you give a resolution for one case, maybe both (I'm not sure it is just conjunction but maybe it is). We'll skip over the other possibilities, which tend to depend upon what 'broda' is.  

But about the cimeis.  Consider 'lo cimei be lo broda.  The "'individuals" in this case seem to have to be triads (of things among lo broda), and relatively impermeable ones.  If they are just taken three at a time, then they turn into just thing and any triad might come out, including ones that never went in.  So, if I want re lo cimei be lo broda, I might get just two things or I might get anywhere from three to six, depending, but not two triads and not necessarily ones that went in. [note below]



----- Original Message ----
From: Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, April 25, 2010 10:49:00 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] What gets into 'lo broda'

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 11:38 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>   [btw how to read 'broda cimei' (or whichever mVV i mean) "A triad of things that broda": is it the things or the triads that broda?]

This is how I would define "PA mei":

First we define "pamei", "x1 is one":

ko'a pamei .ijo ro'oi da poi ke'a me ko'a zo'u da du ko'a
"A is one iff for any X among A: X = A"

then we define "(n+1)mei" using "(n)mei":

ko'a (n+1)mei .ijo su'oi da poi pamei zo'u su'oi de poi (n)mei zo'u ge
da na me de gi ro'oi di poi ke'a me ko'a zo'u ga di me da gi di me de
"A are n+1 iff there's some X which is one and some Y which are n such
that X is not among Y and for every Z among A, Z is X or Z are among
Y"

[Not quite enough, since  for every W among Y, WX is among A but not among Z nor is it X.]

So by induction we now have (n)mei for every n. "su'o PA mei" is then:

ko'a su'o(n)mei .ijo su'oi da poi (n)mei zo'u da me ko'a
"A are at least n iff there's some X which are n such that X are among A"

su'e, me'i, za'u, ro are equally easy.

Now, "(n)mei" actually has an x2 place, "x1 are n of x2". In the above
definitions the x2 is assumed to be everything, but the restriction to
some particular x2 is:

ko'a pamei ko'e .ijo ge ko'a me ko'e gi ko'a pamei
A is one of B iff A is among B and A is one (as above)

Now, "broda cimei" is a tanru, and tanru are never well defined, but
for "cimei be lo broda", "x1 are three of the broda", it should mean
that x1 are three and that they are among the broda.

"broda cimei", as usual for tanru, is ambiguous between "cimei be lo
broda" and "broda je cimei" (and possibly any number of other things).

Just like "cinfo kalte" can be a hunter of lions of a lion that hunts,
"broda cimei" can be a threesome of brodas or a threesome that brodas.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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