Re: [lojban] The North Wind and the Sun

[Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>]

On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 6:32 AM, tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2010/5/8 Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>
>
>> Which makes me wonder, whether there is any difference between "troci"
>> and "zukte" other than switching their x2/x3:
>>
>> troci = setese zukte?
>> zukte = setese troci?
>
> Another difference I can think of is the degree of "effort". According to
> OED, "effort" can mean an activity that either (a) takes a lot of energy or
> (b) is [just] organised in order to achieve something. I think I have seen
> many instances of "troci" used for (a), a sense which "zukte" lacks.

Good point. So in the case of zukte there is almost no question that
the intention will be accomplished by the action, while in the case of
troci it is very much in doubt whether the intention will be
accomplished:

(1)     ko'a zukte lo nu cargau lo veljai kei lo nu kargau lo vorme
        "He turns the handle to open the door."

(2)     ko'a troci lo nu kargau lo vorme kei lo nu cargau lo veljai
        "He tries to open the door by turning the handle."

In (1) the question of whether the door will open or not is hardly
raised (it may end up not opening, but that would be unexpected). In
(2), we are not at all certain whether the door will open.


>> >  drasa 0.434
>>
>> One word I had trouble translating recently was "x1 accedes to do x2"
>> (and it's opposite "x1 refuses to do x2").
>>
>> I don't know whether "drasyspu", "nardrasyspu" would be clear enough
>> though.
>
> (I briefly thought of "tinbe", which is of a mode of responding by being
> (ja'a) or not being (na) the agent of an event wanted by someone else. But
> the event is commanded, not requested, thus different from the x2 of
> "accedes".)

There's that, yes, but another problem with "tinbe" is that it is
about the actual doing, not the predisposition to do. That may perhaps
be fixed with "bredi".

tibybre: x1 is prepared to follow command/rule/(request?) x2 made by x3

Maybe we don't need "drasa" if "bredi" can mean "predisposed to do".
Indeed "tolbre lo nu jungau" is what I ended up using for "refuse to
tell". I didn't think it was a very good match in general, but it
seemed ok in the context. I think the problem is that "bredi" doesn't
have to be intentional.

> "spuda"s x2 is not the response, not what x1 accedes to do; x3 is. I might
> prefer "spudrasa" or better yet "cpadrasa":
>
>  d1=s1 intends to do d2=s3 as a response to s2
>
>  d1=c1 accepts and intends to do d2=c2 suggested by c3
>
> "cpadrasa" seems more natural to me. s2 is less likely a requester than c3
> is. And s3 can be an action contrary to what s2 wants. "suggested" in this
> case means that c2 is a purpose given by c3.

Maybe. The problem is that my first reading of "cpadrasa" is "drasa be
lo nu cpacu", "x1 intends to get x2", not "cpacu je drasa".

I think I prefer "tibdrasa", "drasa be lo nu tinbe", perhaps modified
to "cpetibdrasa" when it's not clear that it is a response to a
request rather than to a command.

Perhaps "tinbe" should be extended to:

  x1 obeys/follows/complies with command/rule/request x2 made by x3

and then specialized to "midytinbe" or "cpetinbe" when needed.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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