Re: [lojban] The North Wind and the Sun

2010/5/8 Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>

On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 6:48 AM, tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Then why not create a new place structure out of these two?
>
> zu'epla
> p1=z1 intends p2=z3

If p2 can be a computer program, I'm not sure how it can be an
intention too. If p3 is the intention, where do p2 and z2 go? But I
won't claim to understand "platu".

That place structure was meant to be based on this definition:

intend
To fix the mind upon (something to be accomplished); be intent upon; mean; design; plan; purpose.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/intend

x1 (p1=z1) is a volitional entity whose mind is fixed upon plan x2 (p2=z3) as voha's own purpose

But I misread it and mistook "purpose" for a noun object instead of a verb. And also an intended course of action that x1 follows is not necessarily planned by x1 (i.e. no "p1=z1"). So I guess I could have better said

x1 (z1) is a volitional entity who intends to follow course of action x2 (p2=z2) for purpose x3 (p3=z3)

which is also based on this definition:

intention
A course of action that a person intends to follow.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/intention

But then the presence of {platu} here appears less necessary. If x1 takes action x2 for which z3 is set, x2 is naturally a planned course of action, where {platu} is redundant.

> dasuan 0.36 (zho: 打算 | dǎsuan )
> irada 0.21 (hin: इरादा | irādā )
> intend 0.16 (eng: intend)
> intension 0.11 (spa: intención )
> namerevatsa 0.09 (rus: намереваться | namerevát’sja )
> kasada 0.07 (ara: قصد | qaSada )
>
> (The Hindi and the Spanish are nouns because I didn't know and couldn't
> find its verb form.

There's no simple verb for that in Spanish, we would say "tener la
intención de".

There is however the cognate "intentar", which means try/attempt.
Which makes me wonder, whether there is any difference between "troci"
and "zukte" other than switching their x2/x3:

troci = setese zukte?
zukte = setese troci?

Another difference I can think of is the degree of "effort". According to OED, "effort" can mean an activity that either (a) takes a lot of energy or (b) is [just] organised in order to achieve something. I think I have seen many instances of "troci" used for (a), a sense which "zukte" lacks.

> drasa 0.434

Sounds good. I'll try to remember it next time I need "intends".

One word I had trouble translating recently was "x1 accedes to do x2"
(and it's opposite "x1 refuses to do x2").

These could be:

"ko'a spuda lo nu ko'a te cpedu lo nu ko'a gasnu ko'e kei ko'i kei lo
nu ko'a drasa lo nu ko'a gasnu ko'e"
"x1 responds to being requested to do x2 by x3 with the intention to do x2"
"x1 accedes to do x2 (for x3)"

"ko'a spuda lo nu ko'a te cpedu lo nu ko'a gasnu ko'e kei ko'i kei lo
nu ko'a drasa lo nu ko'a na gasnu ko'e"
"x1 responds to being requested to do x2 by x3 with the intention to not do x2"
"x1 refuses to do x2 (for x3)"

I don't know whether "drasyspu", "nardrasyspu" would be clear enough though.

Any better ideas?

(I briefly thought of "tinbe", which is of a mode of responding by being (ja'a) or not being (na) the agent of an event wanted by someone else. But the event is commanded, not requested, thus different from the x2 of "accedes".)