Re: Lojban is *NOT* broken! Stop saying that! (was Re: [lojban] Re: Vote for the Future Global Language)

[Craig Daniel <craigbdaniel@gmail.com>]

On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 8:57 PM, Ivo Doko <ivo.doko@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6 January 2011 02:42, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 6:25 PM, Ivo Doko <ivo.doko@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 6 January 2011 01:40, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> actually I read it the same way.
>>>> Esperanto is X, Y, and Z.  lojban is far from being [that] at the
>>>> moment.
>>>> =
>>>> lojban is far from X, Y, AND Z.
>>>> =
>>>> lojban is far from X AND lojban is far from Y AND lojban is far from Z.
>>>> If that's not what you meant to communicate maybe you should try saying
>>>> it in lojban next time ;)
>>>
>>> Wow, you guys need to learn your logic. Let's do it properly:
>>>
>>> A = "lojban is fully defined."
>>> B = "lojban is complete."
>>> C = "lojban is a functioning language."
>>>
>>> "lojban is not a fully defined, complete and functioning language" can be
>>> written as:
>>
>> .i la.lojban. na mulno smugau je mulno je tolpo'u bangu
>> jboski parse
>>
>>>
>>> ¬(A ∧ B ∧ C)
>>>
>>> which is equivalent to:
>>>
>>> ¬A ∨ ¬B ∨ ¬C
>>>
>>> which is:
>>>
>>> "lojban is not fully defined, or lojban is not complete, or lojban is not
>>> a functioning language."
>>
>> .i la.lojban. na mulno smugau gi'a na mulno gi'a na tolpo'u bangu
>> jboski parse
>>
>> Like I said, we tend to think Lojbanically about logic. Notice how the two
>> sentences, translated into Lojban, mean entirely different things.
>
> There's no "lojbanic" thinking about logic - there's logic and not logic. If
> the two sentences parse differently you've either mistranslated them or
> lojban is not logical. Yeah, I'll presume the former.

Or (as in .a/vel) *English* is not logical, and while a logician's OR
means one thing, the pragmatics of English are such that we often use
"or" in a very different way that does not logically mean the same,
making some sentences ambiguous. Their translations into Lojban are
unambiguous, and thus differ from one reading of the English to
another; in this context, there is nothing surprising about some
people reading the (non-logical) English one way and some reading it
the other.

 - mi'e .kreig.

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