Re: Word changing and word creation (was Re: [lojban] bugs in jbovlaste)

[Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>]

I'm not suggesting that we should remove any overlapping gismu.
I'm simply stating that Lojban does have some semanic primitives in it
already, from which a lot of the more complex ideas can be created.
The whole purpose of lujvo is that, isn't it? complex-word?

When we encounter a new idea that can't be readily expressed by a
lujvo, then it shold be assigned a gismu if only the concept is deemed
universal enough. A skilled lojbanist should be confortable with *all*
the gismu, which is why that list shouldn't be extended at all if
possible. Any new ideas that deserve single words, but that aren't
important enough, should be added in the form of zi'evla because the
morphological properties of these words signal to the listener that
the word isn't one that he or she should necessary already know. Then
ensues the [ki'a]-phase, after which the speaker can give some kind
explanation using gismu. Skilled lojbanists would also know all the
rafsi, such that unknown, new lujvo (not necessarily ad hoc ones) can
be at least somewhat understood without having to break the flow of
speech with a ki'a, as is probably necessary for new zi'evla.

mu'o mi'e la tsani


On 13 May 2012 10:39, John E. Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Lojban is not -- and never was intended to be -- a philosophical language,
> in which everything received a appropriate name derived from a few "semantic
> primes".  If gismu overlap, this is typically because natural languages have
> found it Convenient to have more than one word in that area.  Lojban has
> generally followed these natural patterns (with notable exceptions, like
> 'klama').  Probably more overall simplicity could be achieved by adding
> gismu even with overlaps (most words in English can be replaced by other
> words or short phrases in the intricate  cycles of definitions).
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On May 13, 2012, at 7:42 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 6:13 AM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I'm afraid no one is really understanding what I'm trying to get across.
>> With my list, I'm simply saying that a lot of gismu can be "removed"
>> by virtue of the fact that they're simply an agentive version, a
>> volitional version, or an implicitly tensed version of another gismu.
>> A few can be reduced into djuno, and some can almost be eliminated
>> (ckaji), where as for agentives, lasna is just jorne+BAI, in
>> particular {gau}. Isn't that what you said was your definition of
>> synonymous, eyeonous?
>
>
> No, because we are only considering gismu, and you are talking about lujvo.
> I also said I only consider them synonyms if they can be made into each
> other using /only/ FA, SE, zi'o, and BAI.
>
> Secondly, the issue is regarding gleki's assertion that nearly 1000 of the
> current ~1300 gismu could be completely eliminated because they are synonyms
> of /other/ gismu.
>
>>
>> On 13 May 2012 01:15, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 11:01 PM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 12:57 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 9:42 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> > Except for arguably cilre/facki, none of those are synonyms.
>> >>>> I never said they were *synonymous*, I said that they could be
>> >>>> reduced
>> >>>> into one or an other. If one *does* use the more degenerate form,
>> >>>> then
>> >>>> there're additional implications to be handled, such as tense,
>> >>>> usually.
>> >>>> Also, I'd say that the difference between "learning" and "finding
>> >>>> out"
>> >>>> is that one requires volition.
>> >>>> I don't see things like [i mi cilre lo du'u lo mamtymamta cu co'a
>> >>>> morsi], I see things like [i mi facki lo du'u...].
>> >>>> Some synonyms:
>> >>>> mrobi'o and co'amro
>> >>>> tolyli'a and klamu'o
>> >>>> ckaji and tolcau
>> >>>> claxu and tolkai
>> >>>> binxo and co'arkai
>> >>>> cliva and klama
>> >>>> lasna and jongau
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Most of those aren't gismu, so they don't count, leaving us with only
>> >>> cliva/klama.Don't respond to something if you're addressing it.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Is this supposed to be ".. if you're NOT addressing it"?
>> >>
>> >> stevo
>> >
>> >
>> > Yes.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>> >
>> > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>> > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>> >
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>
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
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